"It was past midnight, my shirt half-unbuttoned. I thought it was obvious"
For Aziz: It was late. They were kissing. She was naked. She received oral sex from him. She gave him oral sex. When she said she was uncomfortable, they stopped at sat down. She didn't leave. She stayed, had a glass of wine, both of them still naked, and sat in front of him on the floor. He asked her to blow him again and she did.
Yeah, nothing about that body language says consent... but kissing on a bed past midnight, shirt half-unbuttoned is obvious consent.
The events I mentioned are things she all listed in her own account.
Now in her story she also includes tone, wording, thoughts, and narrative to convey she was uncomfortable. It's obvious from her writing, in hindsight, that she was uncomfortable. But we don't have video to see it in real-time. We don't know how much was communicated externally and how much was just internal discomfort that she's expressing now with editorial power.
If you look at the play-by-play of events she listed... they did things that are a lot further than "past midnight, shirt half-unbuttoned" and kissing on a bed.
Personally, I would consider neither situation to be consent. But then other women say asking for consent isn't sexy, that the OP post situation means "obvious" desire for sex. What if she just wanted to make out? What if she just wanted to dry-hump or do hand stuff but go no further? Wouldn't that look exactly the same up to that point?
I would consider the ' “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”' to be a clear sign of that she doesn't want to give him more oral sex.
I would consider the ' “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”' to be a clear sign of that she doesn't want to give him a handjob.
Yes, I agree it's clear she doesn't want to give him a handjob from those signals. But like you said, lack of consent to a handjob doesn't mean no consent to any other forms of sex then or later.
After that... instead of leaving, she stays at his place, has a glass of wine, stays fully naked while he is fully naked, and sits down on the floor right next to him touching. He asks her to turn around and blow him. She does.
He gave her an option to leave. She chose to stay, have a glass of wine, and sit naked with him. Later she claimed that should in no way have been construed as consent... if someone has been trying to have sex with you all night, on a first date, and you choose to sit with him naked and drinking booze, what exactly do you think your body language is saying? Yet she complained about the second part of the encounter too, not just the repeated handjob attempts.
Whether or not she was right in all her complaints is not one of my interests. Whether or not the male and female overstepped boundaries set in terms of consent is one of my interests; he overstepped in the case of handjobs.
Whether or not she was right in all her complaints is not one of my interests.
Your interests aren't the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread, and debate, is the clarity/ambiguity of consent through nonverbals.
There is both public disagreement and public allegations surrounding exactly what was and was not consented through the body language in that encounter. Therefore, the Aziz situation proves my point and the point of the OP. Body language is not always clear enough on its own, yet other women don't want men to ask for consent verbally.
Body language is not always clear enough on its own, yet other women don't want men to ask for consent verbally.
The subthread started with that statement "Damned if you do, damned if you don't". I disagree with that statement since body language works perfectly well (i.e. you are not damned if you don't) in the grand majority of the cases if you are not socially retarded. In the few cases it wouldn't, then the female is the person that is wrong.
In the aziz case it is clear that he overstep the boundaries in the case of handjobs.
The problem is it doesn't matter whether the female is wrong. Getting accused is damning enough, has serious life consequences. We're not appealing to some objective almighty deity. We're judged by the court of public opinion, which is heavily swayed towards believing women.
If you care about public opinion then sure I agree that false accusations are bad in the sense that you can lose income or people may dislike you.
You can lose income, you can lose your job, you can loser voters, you can get kicked out of a school, you can lose scholarships, you can get kicked off a sports team, you can lose any social media status/followers you may have had, you can lose customers, you can lose investors, and your reputation can be smeared for future dating and networking. These are all consequences others have faced from allegations even without a criminal conviction.
How likely is that given that a person uses body language for asking for consent and properly responds to denials through body language?
You argument is only valid if body language is some clear, unambiguous universal language that everyone understands the same way. If she uses her body language to communicate one thing but he interprets something else, then it's very likely.
You argument is only valid if body language is some clear, unambiguous universal language that everyone understands the same way. If she uses her body language to communicate one thing but he interprets something else, then it's very likely.
You didn't quote an argument, you quoted a question.
I quoted the question because I answered it. By "your argument" I meant your argument, not the question.
To answer the question you didn't need to refer to any of my previous arguments. You furthermore didn't provide an answer to my question, you provided an answer to a similar question.
You might as well ask "how likely is it there are allegations when both parties are happy with the encounter?" It's a ridiculous loaded question.
How likely is it that there are allegations if he responds as she wishes through her denials via body language? Not very. But how likely is it that he misinterprets her body language, leading him to not respond the way she would like him to? Quite likely.
Therefore, the risk of those consequences is not negligible UNLESS you assume body language is some clear, unambiguous universal language that everyone understands the same way. If you do not make that assumption, then the premise of your question (that he "properly" responds) may not happen, and the risk of consequences from future allegations is something to be concerned about.
Keep in mind even if you think your behavior was 100% OK by today's standards, feminists keep redefining acceptable sexual conduct years later, then going backwards in time and calling out people for behavior that was more common under past norms, measuring under the lens of today's morality. Your actions today might not get you jailtime tomorrow, but 10 years later after notions of consent are redefined, they could still get you into serious trouble.
You might as well ask "how likely is it there are allegations when both parties are happy with the encounter?" It's a ridiculous loaded question.
Why is that question loaded? Keep in mind that a loaded question is defined as following: "A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1]" (wikipedia).
As explained in the part not quoted, the assumption is unjustified because communication via body language is not always 100% clear and understood as intended.
Your continued pedantry has also answered my other question.
As explained in the part not quoted, the assumption is unjustified because communication via body language is not always 100% clear and understood as intended.
Which assumption specifically in my question "How likely is that given that a person uses body language for asking for consent and properly responds to denials through body language?"?
Keep in mind that asking "What happens with X if Y is true?" does not mean that one assumes that "Y" is true.
Louis CK literally asked them if he could jerk off in front of them, and they all said yes, then they regret the decision later on. They gave consent then took it back a long time later. That's not how it works.
People use body language differently and make different assumptions. The woman always thinks it's obvious, because she already knows what she means and she uses the same signals.
The man doesn't know her and her own idiosyncracies. He's been with other women, who used body language differently, and he interpreted it as consent because the same body language meant consent from someone else.
People use body language differently and make different assumptions.
I didn't say it was easy. There are many cases where it is possible. For instance if you are alone in a room and a female moves your hand and puts it on her pussy, then she is consenting for sex.
If you two are alone in a room and you start unzipping and the female takes off her bra and starts removing her pants, that's consent.
I didn't say it was easy. There are many cases where it is possible. For instance if you are alone in a room and a female moves your hand and puts it on her pussy, then she is consenting to sex.
Nope. Aziz went even further than this. She was naked. She lubricated his fingers to finger her pussy, multiple times. She gave him oral sex, twice, and received oral sex. However, she was against sex.
If you two are alone in a room and you start unzipping and the female takes off her bra and starts removing her pants, that's consent.
No. I have been in that situation before. She took her clothes off and got into bed with me. When I went to make a move, she was against it. She said she was just hot and uncomfortable in her clothes, didn't have pajamas with her, and just wanted to sleep.
Other times she may be OK with 3rd base but no oral or penetrative sex.
No. I have been in that situation before. She took her clothes off and got into bed with me naked. When I went to make a move, she was against it. She said she was just hot and uncomfortable in her clothes, didn't have pajamas with her, and just wanted to sleep.
So she gave consent previously and then stopped giving consent the moment she clarified. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Other times a woman taking her pants off may be OK with 3rd base but no oral or penetrative sex.
Yup the woman is given consent to sex, but not to all forms of sex.
Except there was never any consent to begin with. She never meant for it to be anything sexual. I just would have misinterpreted by her getting naked and climbing into bed.
The point is even something like a woman taking her pants off doesn't always mean the same thing. Nonverbal communication is not universal. It varies between women and situations. The same signals mean different things. Therefore, women need to stop assuming their meaning is "obvious" and learn to use their words to help steer situations when there are misunderstandings, instead of treating men as rapists or unsexy for not having her personal decoder ring.
The law says otherwise. If she hadn't used her words and it escalated further, I could have been accused of sexual assault. She could argue she never consented and she would be right.
It's not to attack the person. I'm curious about your background. Background influences views on gendered issues. If you are an outlier, it's interesting to know. Of course I will only debate your argument, not your identity. But if you have nothing to hide, there should be no reason not to share.
I have a master's Degree in a STEM field with close to perfect university GPA at a high quality university. Slightly below Mensa IQ. Social liberal ideology.
Why are you so reluctant to identify gender? You don't think it has any connection to views on gender-related issues?
I find that to be irrelevant. You wanted my background, I gave you what I consider relevant background. Namely education, ideology and cognitive ability.
Gender identity is very relevant for subjective topics in gender issue debates, due to privilege and subjective gender-based perspectives. Most self-proclaimed socially liberal people would agree. Just as race is relevant context for subjective issues in racial debates, because a white person doesn't understand what it's like to grow up black and vice versa.
Your education and cognitive ability are not relevant background for this context, other than an attempted pissing contest that you lost. If your arguments are weak, a good education background doesn't make them stronger. If your arguments are strong, they're not detracted by weak cognitive ability.
Just as race is relevant context for subjective issues in racial debates, because a white person doesn't understand what it's like to grow up black and vice versa.
And how is their anecdotal evidence obtained through growing up relevant for constructing valid arguments?
If your arguments are weak, a good education background doesn't make them stronger. If your arguments are strong, they're not detracted by weak cognitive ability.
Agreed. They do though correlate to one's abilities to in the future provide sound arguments and understand certain topics. I expect for instance anyone who has a master's in a stem subject to understand the difference between deductive, inductive and abductive reasoning.
And how is their anecdotal evidence obtained through growing up relevant for constructing valid arguments?
The anecdotal evidence is less relevant than the identity itself. The identity adds context to the other arguments provided, which are highly subjective, due to the nature of the issue.
For example, you claim body language is interpretable and clearly defines consent, despite significant variation in individual use. However, that is your subjective opinion that is indirectly informed by your own anecdotal life experiences. In every situation you've encountered, the nonverbals clearly and unambiguously conveyed consent, so you extrapolate that this is true for all male-female sexual interactions despite observing less than 0.00001% of them. Knowing your identity adds context to the unspoken anecdotal experiences that led you to believe that to be true.
I did not claim that. You are welcome to quote a statement of mine which you believe is equivalent to that.
You didn't say those words. However, it's the implicit assumption underlying your arguments.
Valid arguments do not change based on identity; they are either valid or they aren't.
Yours isn't valid. I'm just trying to understand why you have come to the opinion you have, which is strongly influenced by your own subjective experience.
If your argument was true, there wouldn't be so many misunderstandings in male-female sexual encounters.
You'll get me tood like the little Indian who didn't get permission every step on the way. She was so terrified with fear she gave him head twice to deescalate the situation.
Just lol if you're shocked by this. Consent is used to define sexual misconduct because judges can understand it. You're literally using feminist logic if you expect a legal tool to actually govern human interaction.
if you’re fortunate, she’ll say something early on like “you have an all-access pass” or “you can do anything you want to me.” that simplifies the proceedings, and it’s hot as hell to hear her say it.
“How far are you comfortable going?” Is a really awful question.. just be like... “suck my dick” or “can I stick it in?” etc. Jesus, goddamn SJWs are the bane of existence
not everyone here is a virgin. Yes I have no had sex in almost a year, but women are disgusting and I am severely depressed. Get the fuck out of here and stop bullying.
Another example on why we should never ask for women opinion ever...they dont even know what they do like or not...their brain is peanut size which can only process when buying shoes and clothes😉
The new orthodoxy says you should ask before kissing someone. The autist inside me thinks that just great. But I know opinions vary. And I know some expressed preferences in this area are lies. But no one can rightly blame me for trying it this way.
lol did anyone see that cringy feminist sexual consent video on youtube? like every 5 seconds the guys like "can i kiss you?" "can i take your shirt off?" "can i put my hand on you?" "can i do this?" "can i do that?"
its funny, all while the girl NEVER once asks him for consent.
I would consider the ' “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”' to be a clear sign of that she doesn't want to give him a handjob.
Yes, I agree it's clear she doesn't want to give him a handjob from those signals. But like you said, lack of consent to a handjob doesn't mean no consent to any other forms of sex then or later.
After that... instead of leaving, she stays at his place, has a glass of wine, stays fully naked while he is fully naked, and sits down on the floor right next to him touching. He asks her to turn around and blow him. She does.
60 comments
1 Tookthemethpill 2018-05-19
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Just use body language to ask for consent and look at their body language to see if they consent.
1 nejigsk 2018-05-19
Ask Aziz Ansari about going off of non verbal cues.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
He was socially retarded.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
"It was past midnight, my shirt half-unbuttoned. I thought it was obvious"
For Aziz: It was late. They were kissing. She was naked. She received oral sex from him. She gave him oral sex. When she said she was uncomfortable, they stopped at sat down. She didn't leave. She stayed, had a glass of wine, both of them still naked, and sat in front of him on the floor. He asked her to blow him again and she did.
Yeah, nothing about that body language says consent... but kissing on a bed past midnight, shirt half-unbuttoned is obvious consent.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
You are welcome to provide the article to which you are referring.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355
The events I mentioned are things she all listed in her own account.
Now in her story she also includes tone, wording, thoughts, and narrative to convey she was uncomfortable. It's obvious from her writing, in hindsight, that she was uncomfortable. But we don't have video to see it in real-time. We don't know how much was communicated externally and how much was just internal discomfort that she's expressing now with editorial power.
If you look at the play-by-play of events she listed... they did things that are a lot further than "past midnight, shirt half-unbuttoned" and kissing on a bed.
Personally, I would consider neither situation to be consent. But then other women say asking for consent isn't sexy, that the OP post situation means "obvious" desire for sex. What if she just wanted to make out? What if she just wanted to dry-hump or do hand stuff but go no further? Wouldn't that look exactly the same up to that point?
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Thank you for the link.
I would consider the ' “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”' to be a clear sign of that she doesn't want to give him more oral sex.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Yes, I agree it's clear she doesn't want to give him a handjob from those signals. But like you said, lack of consent to a handjob doesn't mean no consent to any other forms of sex then or later.
After that... instead of leaving, she stays at his place, has a glass of wine, stays fully naked while he is fully naked, and sits down on the floor right next to him touching. He asks her to turn around and blow him. She does.
Sound consensual?
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Agreed.
He should have stopped trying to get a handjob and I think it is bad enough that he kept trying despite clearly being rejected multiple times.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
He gave her an option to leave. She chose to stay, have a glass of wine, and sit naked with him. Later she claimed that should in no way have been construed as consent... if someone has been trying to have sex with you all night, on a first date, and you choose to sit with him naked and drinking booze, what exactly do you think your body language is saying? Yet she complained about the second part of the encounter too, not just the repeated handjob attempts.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Whether or not she was right in all her complaints is not one of my interests. Whether or not the male and female overstepped boundaries set in terms of consent is one of my interests; he overstepped in the case of handjobs.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Your interests aren't the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread, and debate, is the clarity/ambiguity of consent through nonverbals.
There is both public disagreement and public allegations surrounding exactly what was and was not consented through the body language in that encounter. Therefore, the Aziz situation proves my point and the point of the OP. Body language is not always clear enough on its own, yet other women don't want men to ask for consent verbally.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
The subthread started with that statement "Damned if you do, damned if you don't". I disagree with that statement since body language works perfectly well (i.e. you are not damned if you don't) in the grand majority of the cases if you are not socially retarded. In the few cases it wouldn't, then the female is the person that is wrong.
In the aziz case it is clear that he overstep the boundaries in the case of handjobs.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
The problem is it doesn't matter whether the female is wrong. Getting accused is damning enough, has serious life consequences.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
If you care about public opinion then sure I agree that false accusations are bad in the sense that you can lose income or people may dislike you.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
You can lose income, you can lose your job, you can loser voters, you can get kicked out of a school, you can lose scholarships, you can get kicked off a sports team, you can lose any social media status/followers you may have had, you can lose customers, you can lose investors, and your reputation can be smeared for future dating and networking. These are all consequences others have faced from allegations even without a criminal conviction.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
How likely is that given that a person uses body language for asking for consent and properly responds to denials through body language?
If it is rare then "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" should be modified to "Damned if you do, rarely damned if you don't".
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
You argument is only valid if body language is some clear, unambiguous universal language that everyone understands the same way. If she uses her body language to communicate one thing but he interprets something else, then it's very likely.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
You didn't quote an argument, you quoted a question.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
I quoted the question because I answered it. By "your argument" I meant your argument, not the question.
Are you autistic?
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
To answer the question you didn't need to refer to any of my previous arguments. You furthermore didn't provide an answer to my question, you provided an answer to a similar question.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
You might as well ask "how likely is it there are allegations when both parties are happy with the encounter?" It's a ridiculous loaded question.
How likely is it that there are allegations if he responds as she wishes through her denials via body language? Not very. But how likely is it that he misinterprets her body language, leading him to not respond the way she would like him to? Quite likely.
Therefore, the risk of those consequences is not negligible UNLESS you assume body language is some clear, unambiguous universal language that everyone understands the same way. If you do not make that assumption, then the premise of your question (that he "properly" responds) may not happen, and the risk of consequences from future allegations is something to be concerned about.
Keep in mind even if you think your behavior was 100% OK by today's standards, feminists keep redefining acceptable sexual conduct years later, then going backwards in time and calling out people for behavior that was more common under past norms, measuring under the lens of today's morality. Your actions today might not get you jailtime tomorrow, but 10 years later after notions of consent are redefined, they could still get you into serious trouble.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Why is that question loaded? Keep in mind that a loaded question is defined as following: "A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1]" (wikipedia).
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
As explained in the part not quoted, the assumption is unjustified because communication via body language is not always 100% clear and understood as intended.
Your continued pedantry has also answered my other question.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Which assumption specifically in my question "How likely is that given that a person uses body language for asking for consent and properly responds to denials through body language?"?
Keep in mind that asking "What happens with X if Y is true?" does not mean that one assumes that "Y" is true.
1 FireAlarm911 2018-05-19
"No" doesn't mean "no" forever.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Agreed, and an appropriate time to ask again is not at that time, but during another day.
1 FireAlarm911 2018-05-19
Wrong
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
So you think it is appropriate to ask for consent during the same night when you have already asked and were clearly denied?
1 Incelvester 2018-05-19
Louis CK literally asked them if he could jerk off in front of them, and they all said yes, then they regret the decision later on. They gave consent then took it back a long time later. That's not how it works.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Can you link to an article stating that Louis CK received a "yes" from Dana Min Goodman and Julia Wolov?
1 Tookthemethpill 2018-05-19
Is that how you do it with your cell mate? I’m good on prison thanks. You have fun.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
People use body language differently and make different assumptions. The woman always thinks it's obvious, because she already knows what she means and she uses the same signals.
The man doesn't know her and her own idiosyncracies. He's been with other women, who used body language differently, and he interpreted it as consent because the same body language meant consent from someone else.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
I didn't say it was easy. There are many cases where it is possible. For instance if you are alone in a room and a female moves your hand and puts it on her pussy, then she is consenting for sex.
If you two are alone in a room and you start unzipping and the female takes off her bra and starts removing her pants, that's consent.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Nope. Aziz went even further than this. She was naked. She lubricated his fingers to finger her pussy, multiple times. She gave him oral sex, twice, and received oral sex. However, she was against sex.
No. I have been in that situation before. She took her clothes off and got into bed with me. When I went to make a move, she was against it. She said she was just hot and uncomfortable in her clothes, didn't have pajamas with her, and just wanted to sleep.
Other times she may be OK with 3rd base but no oral or penetrative sex.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
So she gave consent previously and then stopped giving consent the moment she clarified. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Yup the woman is given consent to sex, but not to all forms of sex.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Except there was never any consent to begin with. She never meant for it to be anything sexual. I just would have misinterpreted by her getting naked and climbing into bed.
The point is even something like a woman taking her pants off doesn't always mean the same thing. Nonverbal communication is not universal. It varies between women and situations. The same signals mean different things. Therefore, women need to stop assuming their meaning is "obvious" and learn to use their words to help steer situations when there are misunderstandings, instead of treating men as rapists or unsexy for not having her personal decoder ring.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Sure, but she gave her consent through her body language. You can give consent for something unconsciously.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
The law says otherwise. If she hadn't used her words and it escalated further, I could have been accused of sexual assault. She could argue she never consented and she would be right.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
You can accuse anyone of anything at any time.
It is possible that the law does. The law however does not decide whether or not consent was given.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Please state your age and gender.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
The background of a person is irrelevant for whether or not the arguments are sound. Attack the arguments, not the person.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
It's not to attack the person. I'm curious about your background. Background influences views on gendered issues. If you are an outlier, it's interesting to know. Of course I will only debate your argument, not your identity. But if you have nothing to hide, there should be no reason not to share.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
I have a master's Degree in a STEM field with close to perfect university GPA at a high quality university. Slightly below Mensa IQ. Social liberal ideology.
Can you provide your background?
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
STEM Master's from an Ivy League. Triple 9 club IQ. High income professional.
Early 30s Asian male. Why are you so reluctant to identify gender?
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
I find that to be irrelevant. You wanted my background, I gave you what I consider relevant background. Namely education, ideology and cognitive ability.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Gender identity is very relevant for subjective topics in gender issue debates, due to privilege and subjective gender-based perspectives. Most self-proclaimed socially liberal people would agree. Just as race is relevant context for subjective issues in racial debates, because a white person doesn't understand what it's like to grow up black and vice versa.
Your education and cognitive ability are not relevant background for this context, other than an attempted pissing contest that you lost. If your arguments are weak, a good education background doesn't make them stronger. If your arguments are strong, they're not detracted by weak cognitive ability.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
And how is their anecdotal evidence obtained through growing up relevant for constructing valid arguments?
Agreed. They do though correlate to one's abilities to in the future provide sound arguments and understand certain topics. I expect for instance anyone who has a master's in a stem subject to understand the difference between deductive, inductive and abductive reasoning.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
The anecdotal evidence is less relevant than the identity itself. The identity adds context to the other arguments provided, which are highly subjective, due to the nature of the issue.
For example, you claim body language is interpretable and clearly defines consent, despite significant variation in individual use. However, that is your subjective opinion that is indirectly informed by your own anecdotal life experiences. In every situation you've encountered, the nonverbals clearly and unambiguously conveyed consent, so you extrapolate that this is true for all male-female sexual interactions despite observing less than 0.00001% of them. Knowing your identity adds context to the unspoken anecdotal experiences that led you to believe that to be true.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Valid arguments do not change based on identity: they are either valid or they aren't.
I did not claim that. You are welcome to quote a statement of mine which you believe is equivalent to that.
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
You didn't say those words. However, it's the implicit assumption underlying your arguments.
Yours isn't valid. I'm just trying to understand why you have come to the opinion you have, which is strongly influenced by your own subjective experience.
If your argument was true, there wouldn't be so many misunderstandings in male-female sexual encounters.
1 andinuad 2018-05-19
Okay, which of my arguments do you not consider to be valid and for which reason do you don't find it valid?
1 xtsv 2018-05-19
This, I personally use Vietnamese sign language to get these things across.
1 Ryzasu 2018-05-19
Unless you're a CHAD
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
It is obvious: if you're Chad, she wants sex. If you're incel, she wants you to stop.
1 CHAD_THUNDERCUCK 2018-05-19
You'll get me tood like the little Indian who didn't get permission every step on the way. She was so terrified with fear she gave him head twice to deescalate the situation.
1 GodEmperorX 2018-05-19
Where is this from?
1 DirtyBristolBoi 2018-05-19
Hell.
1 qwep-mi 2018-05-19
So you should force yourself on a girl?
1 GodEmperorX 2018-05-19
You’re supposed to read her body language.
1 qwep-mi 2018-05-19
"Just read her body language bro." If she ignores you that means she wants you more!"
1 FireAlarm911 2018-05-19
If she doesn't say no, I'm not stopping.
1 nextlvlrattata 2018-05-19
"either we're fuckin or im fuckin" i guess
1 CommieCel 2018-05-19
Just lol if you're shocked by this. Consent is used to define sexual misconduct because judges can understand it. You're literally using feminist logic if you expect a legal tool to actually govern human interaction.
1 Fogfroof 2018-05-19
Feminists are the nastiest whores.
1 tiahlm 2018-05-19
if you’re fortunate, she’ll say something early on like “you have an all-access pass” or “you can do anything you want to me.” that simplifies the proceedings, and it’s hot as hell to hear her say it.
1 N0Taqua 2018-05-19
not after asking her that, she won't.
1 tiahlm 2018-05-19
she won’t what?
1 GuyFromDaStore 2018-05-19
Asking for consent, what are you a Laci Green subscriber?
1 ddeet2 2018-05-19
Probably
1 BinoChrist 2018-05-19
“How far are you comfortable going?” Is a really awful question.. just be like... “suck my dick” or “can I stick it in?” etc. Jesus, goddamn SJWs are the bane of existence
1 TwinsisterWendy 2018-05-19
I read this very article and it said the exact opposite.
1 Mr_StealYoGirl69 2018-05-19
LOL holy fuck you're out of touch with reality.
1 TwinsisterWendy 2018-05-19
Meanwhile you're the one not having sex, not me.
1 Mr_StealYoGirl69 2018-05-19
not everyone here is a virgin. Yes I have no had sex in almost a year, but women are disgusting and I am severely depressed. Get the fuck out of here and stop bullying.
1 FireAlarm911 2018-05-19
The point is, the default position is "asking for consent isn't sexy"
1 NatSocCel 2018-05-19
He's a Chad so the femoid expected him to not ask for consent, ya know. He supposed to knew.
1 not_good_looking 2018-05-19
What has inceltears got to say about this?
1 CountyMcCounterson 2018-05-19
- IncelTears
1 futmut 2018-05-19
Another example on why we should never ask for women opinion ever...they dont even know what they do like or not...their brain is peanut size which can only process when buying shoes and clothes😉
1 Build_that_Bear 2018-05-19
If you're not sure it's probably better to ask than accidentally assault someone.
In my experience it isn't usually very ambiguous, though.
1 xxxrivenmainxxx 2018-05-19
nice guy falls for feminist shit test in 2018, kek
1 Gtj_2036 2018-05-19
Women have no idea what they want. But they'll be quick to press charges the next morning when they find themselves laying next to an ugly guy.
1 moonpodrising 2018-05-19
The new orthodoxy says you should ask before kissing someone. The autist inside me thinks that just great. But I know opinions vary. And I know some expressed preferences in this area are lies. But no one can rightly blame me for trying it this way.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/02/dating-after-metoo-should-i-ask-my-date-if-i-can-kiss-her
1 CaligulaWasRight 2018-05-19
lol did anyone see that cringy feminist sexual consent video on youtube? like every 5 seconds the guys like "can i kiss you?" "can i take your shirt off?" "can i put my hand on you?" "can i do this?" "can i do that?"
its funny, all while the girl NEVER once asks him for consent.
1 inthepouringrain_ 2018-05-19
DM article link?
1 PhucCheet 2018-05-19
Yes, I agree it's clear she doesn't want to give him a handjob from those signals. But like you said, lack of consent to a handjob doesn't mean no consent to any other forms of sex then or later.
After that... instead of leaving, she stays at his place, has a glass of wine, stays fully naked while he is fully naked, and sits down on the floor right next to him touching. He asks her to turn around and blow him. She does.
Sound consensual?