Killing people just because they dont believe in stupid fairy tales doesnt make u better human, 72 virgins after death is so dumb i cant literally imagine how one can believe in such things
So the West is no better than Islam. And in fact it is worse because the majority of the West supports killing people (Trump's ratings went up after bombing Syria) while the majority of Muslims do not.
That justifies the retarded notion of Big Jihad? I mean, when it's protecting your country - that's fine, I can respect that but you guys do it to punish unbelievers and sow terror.
(Trump's ratings went up after bombing Syria)
The US isn't the entire West, just so you know. Creating such a weak strawman by saying that the MAJORITY of the West supports killing people is so beneath you, Islamofag, that I worry about your mental capacities.
The universal framework doesn't need to revolve around belief in an invisible sky fairy... All it needs to revolve around is a basic respect for other people and yourself, knowledge that actions have consequences, and good manners.
Yeah, I've heard that a thousand times. The only people who say that are people who believe in human beings too much. I don't believe in human beings that much. For instance: if I wasn't Muslim I'm like 95% sure Id have killed someone and myself by now. Why didn't I do it? Fear of god lol.
You're wrong philosophically too. Morality isn't like science you can't make universal laws. You can only do it if you fit the universe under your moral framework, such as to say the universe was created by God and God says so and so is good.
The only argument should be whether God exists and whether objective morality is a practical system.
So you'd only not kill people because of God? What about the law? Or indeed the fact that you wouldn't want to be stabbed/shot/shoved under a bus, so why do it to someone else?
If someone proved god doesn't exist, would you see that as carte blanche to go out on a spree? Why? Do you not believe in action and consequence? Or only when it's written down a thousand years ago in an ancient language by some guy who was probably hallucinating through dehydration out in the desert?
Man has free will. Whether you believe in god or not, that remains true. We have a legal system to make sure that free will is limited to that which won't harm others. If you break the law, you have to face the consequences.
What we don't have is discipline. If people had discipline, there would be less crap going on in the world, and discipline also means that morals can be instilled in children and carried into adulthood. You don't need an invisible sky fairy, you just need kids to learn early that actions have consequences, and those consequences come from the adults around them, not some unproven being that might punish/reward you after you're dead. When you're 5 years old, the age of 90 is so far off that it seems easily ignored. When you're older, you think you don't have to deal with it till you're dead.
Teach manners. Teach respect for your elders. Teach morals. Use consequences. You don't need a distant threat of consequence after you're dead. You need threat of consequence when you get found out.
And don't bother wittering on about child abuse. Consequences can be as simple as missing out on ice cream, or being sent to their room with NO electronics, not being allowed out to play, having their games consoles removed for a period of time, removal of mobile phone... These days there are a whole load of ways to show people that actions have consequences.
There is no need to bring a deity into it. Apart from anything else, which one do you choose? That's not faith. That's just picking the best options for the promised afterlife.
Consequences should follow actions, not be used as some vague threat of what will happen after you're dead.
Let me put it this way. The speed of light is 300 million meters a second. Can you then come and say that actually no its actually 200 million meters a second? No you can't because that is a universal law. You have a humanist moral system meaning the human norm is what dictates morality. If human norm dictated that stealing was wrong could I then not go and say 'no stealing is OK so long as I do it'? Dictators, especially atheist communist dictators do it all the time, as have democracies.
I agree that there are certain things all people agree is bad or good, but such accusations wrest on good will and good will alone if they are not backed by the will of an omnipotent diety. There is a reason why monotheism reigns supreme its because it works.
If your deity is so omnipotent, why is there death, disease, war, crime, suicide, loneliness, dictators, and all the rest of it? Why do people die in earthquakes and tsunamis? Why do babies die? What have they done wrong to deserve short, painful lives?
A lot of people steal. People murder. A 6 year old girl was murdered on the island I'm from a couple of days ago by a 16 year old boy. What is your god going to do about that? Is he going to make it any easier for the family to have lost the wee girl? Is he going to make the murderer pay for his crime? No. It's down to human beings to do that, because if there is a god, he is a right fucker for allowing shit like that to happen, and I wouldn't want anything to do with him for that alone.
Morality can be taught without your stick-and-carrot deity. There were morals before the Abrahamic religion even thought of moving out of the desert, and there could be again if people were actually taught moral standards, and consequences of actions. As it is, we have feral children who have no moral compass whatsoever, even within religious settings, who go out and steal, murder, rape, fornicate, and all the rest of it.
And then you guys sit and whine about a lack of morals when I know for a fact that if you were Chad, you'd be screwing more than a carpenter with a fetish for joining objects using an incline plane wrapped helically around an axis.
OK. You have the most normal everyday copy paste opinion. Your opinion is the opinion of the average American(or some other capitalist country) consumer. That enough should ring some alarm bells.
Asking if there's a God why is there suffering is a silly question. A theist can easily say this world is imperfect and that true salvation will happen after death if you live by Gods rules. If this world was heaven then there would be no test of free will.
I live in the UK. I was brought up with morals and manners, without the need for a deity looking over my shoulder. I was taught that actions have consequences. I was taught to take responsibility. I was taught to treat everyone the way I would like to be treated myself.
A theist will waffle about heaven and hell, how people will get their comeuppance in whatever passes for an afterlife, depending on the deity.
BUT, someone could be a complete bastard for their whole life, do a deathbed conversion, gain absolution, and still go to heaven, according to many scriptures. How is that in any way being punished for daily transgressions and sins?
It's a load of old garbage. You should face the consequences of your actions while you are still alive. You should live honestly and morally because doing otherwise has consequences, not because some sky fairy appeared in some hallucination out in the middle of the desert however many millennia ago.
And do tell how a deity, who is supposed to be a loving one, a forgiving one, when they gave man free will then punished him for using it? Isn't that just a bit on the mean, malicious and nasty side? It's like giving a child a toy, then beating him for playing with it. That would be classed as child abuse.
My opinion is my own. Don't you think that if a lot of people agree with it, it may well have some merit? You try to dismiss it by bringing up consumerism, but that has nothing to do with morality, manners and common decency. There is no need for a god for any of that stuff, just people being taught properly, not left to their own devices, being nasty little rude bastards.
People need to take some responsibility. You'll notice most of the degeneracy started when the bleeding-hearts came storming out and took discipline out of schools and away from parents, because it might damage the precious little darlings. Kids were no longer taught about actions and consequences. They were no longer punished for wrongdoing. They were told about their RIGHTS, and taught that their rights transcended the rights of every other person on the planet.
Stop relying on a deity to fix things. It's just shirking responsibility yet again.
Ahh I see. You are looking at this issue from a very personal point of view. If you look at religion personally then it turns into a stupid woo-woo hippie spirituality thing. In that sense your perspective makes sense. If I looked at religion from a personal perspective I would think its was a nuisance too.
But at least try and look at things from a historical distance instead of personally. Religion is not better because of its philosophy or because people are convinced of God; religion gets its legitimacy almost exclusively from it's practical benefits. I personally have not confirmed a God exists and neither has anyone else alive, so I don't 100% believe. But you know what I do believe in? My religious community, the Ummah as we Muslims say. I don't need to read Kant or Leibnitz to see with my own two eyes the balance of a religious system. I don't care how clever your little platitudes about humanism is, it won't provide me a stable family like Islam will. I see how you people raise your sons and daughter all the time and I am disgusted. I don't want a life like that.
Either ways it doesn't matter. Are you a white middle class Briton?
From a historical perspective, it's still just a load of oral history that has been mistranslated, re-translated, picked apart, made up, and exaggerated.
Religion only gets it's legitimacy from the gullible who felt the need to believe in one sky fairy over others, then fight about who has the best sky fairy.
If there's one thing that has caused more war, division of peoples, hindering of progress, death and destruction, it's religion. Ankhenaten tried to bring monotheism to the Egyptians, and they resisted and went back to the old gods. Christianity mostly wiped out paganism, burning and killing heretics as the division between Catholic and Protestant widened, and still causes division today (look at Northern Ireland for an example). Then there was the subjugation of the natives in America, because they were heathens, and had to be converted to Christianity. Don't forget the tribes in Africa, and indigenous peoples all over the world being converted to Christianity and Islam (although Islam mostly stuck to the desert while the European Christians did their thing). You've got the Crusades and the fight for the Holy Land between faiths that worshipped the same bloody god, but just couldn't agree on how to worship and who was a prophet, who was the son of said god, and who owned "the holy land", and it's still a war zone centuries later.
Why can't a community just be a community without the need for bringing religion into it? I come from an island that is a community without any need for everyone to worship the same way, or indeed the same god, or any god. People look out for each other. They care about each other. The crime rate is normally pretty minimal until this horrible week. I remember only one other murder on the island, and that was about 30 years ago. In the spring, the Police have the onerous task of stopping traffic to allow the swans to take their cygnets down to the sea from the castle moat. That's because people look out for one another, because people respect others.
You can sit there and try to be all morally superior because of your deity, and try to poke holes because of who I am and how I was brought up, but I know I was brought up well, and I don't care if people worship a deity or not, don't care what colour their skin is, what they look like, whether they have a disability, whether they are young or old, I will continue to treat people the way I would like to be treated, because to do otherwise would be an anathema to me.
If more people had been brought up the way I was, the world wouldn't be so crap. And it doesn't need religion to bring children up well.
The law is secular. It doesn't require a deity to ask people to treat each other decently. Why does anyone in these days of science need to pay money to a church that is already wealthy? Is it a bribe to a corruptible god to overlook any transgressions? Because that's what it looks like.
If there's one thing that has caused more war, division of peoples, hindering of progress, death and destruction, it's religion
This is one of those stupid platitudes I'm talking about. Do me a favor, go to your nearest university, go to the history department, and repeat that to every professional historian there, and then tell me what they thought.
Then you can apologize to me for making me read your word-salad essays.
I won't apologise. My father, who is quite educated and used to be a lay preacher in the Church of Scotland, used that one single fact as part of his children's address and then sermon for one of his Sunday services.
The Crusades. The Spanish Armada. Iraq. Northern Ireland. Jerusalem. Syria. Islamophobia in the modern age. Subjugation of "heretics" in the 14th and 15th centuries. Enforced conversions during conquest. Wiping out of indigenous polytheism. The Inquisition. The Holocaust.
It's not just a platitude. It is the truth. It's why we had the Dark Ages, while the Church ruled that any progress was heresy and banned it. People were ruled heretics and burned, or hanged and burned or many other nasty ways to make people die.
I notice that you have neatly sidestepped every other question. You seem to prefer attempting ad-hominem rather than actual answers to the points I've brought up.
We wouldn't have developed large urban centers without religion. Most of the world's cultures would never form if it weren't for religion. The basis of equality and individual rights also comes from religion. Actually, it is more accurate to say that these ideas are self evident but solidified in religion. This is why I think that statement waz dumb. There's a host of other things which usher conflict more than religion ever could. You don't have to read books to know this, common sense will do; if you insult my religion I will be mad, if you steal my property I will harm you. Religion is the ultimate mythos, and mythos are needed in order to form largescale cooperation. The idea of the United Kingdom is a myth which does not exist under a microscope yet without it life would be chaotic.
Religions formed to answer questions that science wasn't around to answer: why does the sun come up? Why do the crops grow? Will it rain? Will there be a good harvest? Will the Nile inundation be good this year? Why is the water turning red? Why is there a plague of frogs? Where did all the locusts come from?
Yes, other things usher conflict, such as dominion of territory, but at the other end of it, you get the religious nutters deciding that Native Americans are worshipping the wrong gods, and are ergo heathens and savages and need to be converted or they die, or savage African tribes that need to be converted or die, or Incas that need to convert or die, infidels that need to convert or die, heretics that need to convert or die... Can you see a pattern here?
The basis of equality and individual rights was around in the days of cave peoples whose gods were numerous and explained the basics, like rain, sun, eclipses, plant growth, and to whom they appealed for a good hunt and good harvests in autumn. Urban centres came about because people congregate to live together in communities, as it is easier to have many people working together than it is to try to scrape subsistence on your own. People have lived in nomadic tribes for millennia, and at one stage in evolution, most decided to settle down and become farmers instead of hunter/gatherers. This wasn't to do with religion, but to do with stability of food.
Religions have gone from a worship of nature, giving back to the land, not taking more than was needed, living within the land.
The thing that drove urbanisation was commerce, not religion. Cultures have existed without religion too, like the Mongols, who took a lot of territory without having any significant religion.
What you're doing with supporting this thread is not even the equality that you say religion gives, because Islam is not a religion of equality. It's a religion that subjugates women and turns them from people to property, even after death.
Most pathetic and disgusting cope. Islam is a false religion to bluepill subhumans like you and make them mohammad's little cucks for eternity.
You really think you'd get a wife in a muslim society? All the imams and rich people + high status get 4 wives each, and they leave more than half the population slaving away in lifelong slavery , and they keep them on leash with the fake promise of 72 virgins.
U ain't gettin shit when u die bitch, and u gonna spend ur whole life cucking for your neighbor's imam and his 4 wives, while he tells you that you'll get rewarded in the afterlife, and you're gonna believe it all like a pathetic little cuck.
Where the fuck did you get this notion that there are people walking around with 4 wives in Muslim countries? I lived in South Asia and Middle East for a while, did not meet a single polygamous family. You cant just grab a woman by the ear and make her your wife. Theres a whole legal process. Are you fucking stupid?
Yeah it was sarcasm, brainlets really love to use the Ottoman moon and star as the Cross" of the Islam.
The prophet used green and black flags to lead his armies, so not even ISIS or Saudi Arabia flags can be used as symbols of Islam, islam is iconoclast.
Didnt rashidun armies use green and black flags with religious script(shahada or smt similar). I remember ottomans using something similar to saudi flag's red version too in the 18th century.
I blame western countries for the use of ottoman flag. voltaire called all muslims turks for example. Western Civilizations are rather clueless when it comes to islam and its history
Didnt rashidun armies use green and black flags with religious script(shahada or smt similar)
Nah, the one's that started the tradition of putting the shahada in banners were the Afghans during their wars against the british, The Prophet choose the green color as the solely representation of his armies(cause green was associated with the paradise)
I'd jump on the islam train in the west if we could put all these fucking sjw roasties in their place and take their rights away like the subhumans they are.
As the comments here show, most incels here are morons. Islam is obviously a vast improvement over degenerate modern culture. Anyone interested in real solutions like Islam should come to /r/WhitePill.
Go to the masjid. Make friends with the young people there. Let them know about you. The imam will then convert you though anybody can do it. As for a wife, be a pious Muslim with a stable income and families will start to consider you. Notice I said family, not woman, the fathers and brothers usually decide. You will know the true meaning of brotherhood.
Anyone is going to give their ugly subhuman loser self their sister/daughter's hand in marriage
That their muslim wife will love and care about them(hint: you're still unattractive)
That they can "do what they want with their muslim wife"(just lol)
Lifetime of betabuxing is better than inceldom(seriously women in islam are even more catered to than Stacies)
If you want white sharia as some kind of retarded revenge because women are not attracted to unattractive males that's your stupidity, but if you think going muslim will actually improve your personal, incel situation you're coping harder than average /r/wholesomememes poster.
Are you mentally retarded? You're telling me you've never seen an immigrant Muslim couple where the husband looks like a fat goat and still had a loyal wife with 7 kids? Serious question: do you live in rural or suburban America?
I didn't say a Muslim woman doesn't have urges of hypergamy or hamstering or any of the urges Western women have. I'm saying that the Islamic system reinforces loyalty and obedience with social ostracism and brute force if nessecary.
And calm the fuck down, inceldom isn't your religion, you can acknowledge when there are systems which have actual solutions to the problem.
In the end, what may drive me off this sub is not constant visitations by clueless newfags but Islamofags.
How some people think that they will not be affected by the usual human sexual dynamics should they convert to Islam is beyond me.
Teaches women respect - kek, anyone who wishes to commit adultery is just extremely careful about it. Adultery still happens in Islam.
Shames degeneracy - Well, depending on your definition of degeneracy. If you think that banging young boys is not a degeneracy then, by all means, go ahead.
Equality between genders - that's rich.
72 virgins - for martyrs.
Right, in the end, it's still humans who exercise those rights. Religious laws are still the laws of man and there are workarounds for everything. In my humble opinion, anyone who falls for the "Islam is the religion for incels" meme is a moron but you do you guys.
I'm a Muslim 72 virgins is a mistranslation it actually says raisins or something I'm not sure what it means by that though plus just so people know and I know you said it in your post but I want to explain more due to s lot of misconceptions.
Women are equal in Islam and in fact the mother is above the father so don't think Islam allows you to have sex slaves or something plus you can't have sex before marriage you also shouldn't wank and you need to pray 5 times a day and fast during Ramadan also donating I think it was at least 2.5% of your annually income to charity plus there are other rules I'm just listing the main ones.
I doubt any of you were serious about joining Islam but I do see how there are e people like incels who do dumb shit that is completely against Islam say they are following Islam and give Muslims a bad name
Yeah it was sarcasm, brainlets really love to use the Ottoman moon and star as the Cross" of the Islam.
The prophet used green and black flags to lead his armies, so not even ISIS or Saudi Arabia flags can be used as symbols of Islam, islam is iconoclast.
From a historical perspective, it's still just a load of oral history that has been mistranslated, re-translated, picked apart, made up, and exaggerated.
Religion only gets it's legitimacy from the gullible who felt the need to believe in one sky fairy over others, then fight about who has the best sky fairy.
If there's one thing that has caused more war, division of peoples, hindering of progress, death and destruction, it's religion. Ankhenaten tried to bring monotheism to the Egyptians, and they resisted and went back to the old gods. Christianity mostly wiped out paganism, burning and killing heretics as the division between Catholic and Protestant widened, and still causes division today (look at Northern Ireland for an example). Then there was the subjugation of the natives in America, because they were heathens, and had to be converted to Christianity. Don't forget the tribes in Africa, and indigenous peoples all over the world being converted to Christianity and Islam (although Islam mostly stuck to the desert while the European Christians did their thing). You've got the Crusades and the fight for the Holy Land between faiths that worshipped the same bloody god, but just couldn't agree on how to worship and who was a prophet, who was the son of said god, and who owned "the holy land", and it's still a war zone centuries later.
Why can't a community just be a community without the need for bringing religion into it? I come from an island that is a community without any need for everyone to worship the same way, or indeed the same god, or any god. People look out for each other. They care about each other. The crime rate is normally pretty minimal until this horrible week. I remember only one other murder on the island, and that was about 30 years ago. In the spring, the Police have the onerous task of stopping traffic to allow the swans to take their cygnets down to the sea from the castle moat. That's because people look out for one another, because people respect others.
You can sit there and try to be all morally superior because of your deity, and try to poke holes because of who I am and how I was brought up, but I know I was brought up well, and I don't care if people worship a deity or not, don't care what colour their skin is, what they look like, whether they have a disability, whether they are young or old, I will continue to treat people the way I would like to be treated, because to do otherwise would be an anathema to me.
If more people had been brought up the way I was, the world wouldn't be so crap. And it doesn't need religion to bring children up well.
The law is secular. It doesn't require a deity to ask people to treat each other decently. Why does anyone in these days of science need to pay money to a church that is already wealthy? Is it a bribe to a corruptible god to overlook any transgressions? Because that's what it looks like.
83 comments
1 throwawayricecel 2018-05-11
White sharia now!
1 Dumptruxer 2018-05-11
You forgot
1 SophisticatedDalek 2018-05-11
Meaning if you're ugly you can become wealthy and not get divorce raped by your many Stacys.
1 broscientologist 2018-05-11
Jizya is an Islamic tax that is specifically for the poor, women, children & the elderly. You are obligated to care for any other believer.
1 SophisticatedDalek 2018-05-11
There are far fewer single women and their children to care for under a patriarchy.
1 broscientologist 2018-05-11
That’s just wrong. Especially when the men all run away to countries that support single men with benefits.
1 SophisticatedDalek 2018-05-11
Umm you realize the US has the highest single motherhood rate in the world right.
1 sovn_tri_tri 2018-05-11
i thought jizya only affected non-muslims or am i wrong?
1 BigLebowskiBot 2018-05-11
You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole.
1 sovn_tri_tri 2018-05-11
good bot
1 GoodBot_BadBot 2018-05-11
Thank you, sovn_tri_tri, for voting on BigLebowskiBot.
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1 BigLebowskiBot 2018-05-11
Huh.
1 sovn_tri_tri 2018-05-11
good bot
1 LudzkiePomyje 2018-05-11
Killing people just because they dont believe in stupid fairy tales doesnt make u better human, 72 virgins after death is so dumb i cant literally imagine how one can believe in such things
1 Hoeasss 2018-05-11
Well the 72 virgins thing is not in the quran so most muslims don't believe it
1 LudzkiePomyje 2018-05-11
Dont believe in quran, bible, find the truth on your hand dont let the place od birth determine your believes
1 -SpinxS 2018-05-11
there are virgins. but not 72.
1 Zyklon_Bae 2018-05-11
There are 72, but they are male incels
1 lonely_suicidal_cel 2018-05-11
72 virgins sounds like a dream tbh, I would want that
1 fschmidt 2018-05-11
You must be referring to modern culture which bombs other nations that don't accept their stupid liberal fairy tales.
1 MozzerDozzer 2018-05-11
B-B-BUT THE WEST DOES IT TOO!!
Yes it does, so?
1 fschmidt 2018-05-11
So the West is no better than Islam. And in fact it is worse because the majority of the West supports killing people (Trump's ratings went up after bombing Syria) while the majority of Muslims do not.
1 MozzerDozzer 2018-05-11
That justifies the retarded notion of Big Jihad? I mean, when it's protecting your country - that's fine, I can respect that but you guys do it to punish unbelievers and sow terror.
The US isn't the entire West, just so you know. Creating such a weak strawman by saying that the MAJORITY of the West supports killing people is so beneath you, Islamofag, that I worry about your mental capacities.
Are you actually retarded?
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
Never mind religion. Teach morality and manners instead.
1 HandInSand121 2018-05-11
It's funny because that's exactly what this religion does.
1 420epic69 2018-05-11
Religion teaches people to be stupid and not think for themselves.
1 HandInSand121 2018-05-11
You could believe that. Although that's very closed minded. I'm gonna take a guess that you have no knowledge of any religion.
1 420epic69 2018-05-11
I spent too much time studying science at Johns Hopkins to believe in bullshit.
1 HandInSand121 2018-05-11
Cool man. That's nice but you shouldn't just make assumptions like that. To 4 billion people it's not bullshit.
1 Cristi76 2018-05-11
Almost everyone thought the Earth was flat some time ago, it didn't make it real.
Science > Religion
1 HandInSand121 2018-05-11
Have you ever thought of believing both at the same time???
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Does science tell you that fucking your mother is wrong?
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
Yeah, but you don't need the invisible sky-fairy bit to teach morals and manners.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
You can teach morals but you cannot make them objective without a universal framework like religion.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
The universal framework doesn't need to revolve around belief in an invisible sky fairy... All it needs to revolve around is a basic respect for other people and yourself, knowledge that actions have consequences, and good manners.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Yeah, I've heard that a thousand times. The only people who say that are people who believe in human beings too much. I don't believe in human beings that much. For instance: if I wasn't Muslim I'm like 95% sure Id have killed someone and myself by now. Why didn't I do it? Fear of god lol.
You're wrong philosophically too. Morality isn't like science you can't make universal laws. You can only do it if you fit the universe under your moral framework, such as to say the universe was created by God and God says so and so is good.
The only argument should be whether God exists and whether objective morality is a practical system.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
So you'd only not kill people because of God? What about the law? Or indeed the fact that you wouldn't want to be stabbed/shot/shoved under a bus, so why do it to someone else?
If someone proved god doesn't exist, would you see that as carte blanche to go out on a spree? Why? Do you not believe in action and consequence? Or only when it's written down a thousand years ago in an ancient language by some guy who was probably hallucinating through dehydration out in the desert?
Man has free will. Whether you believe in god or not, that remains true. We have a legal system to make sure that free will is limited to that which won't harm others. If you break the law, you have to face the consequences.
What we don't have is discipline. If people had discipline, there would be less crap going on in the world, and discipline also means that morals can be instilled in children and carried into adulthood. You don't need an invisible sky fairy, you just need kids to learn early that actions have consequences, and those consequences come from the adults around them, not some unproven being that might punish/reward you after you're dead. When you're 5 years old, the age of 90 is so far off that it seems easily ignored. When you're older, you think you don't have to deal with it till you're dead.
Teach manners. Teach respect for your elders. Teach morals. Use consequences. You don't need a distant threat of consequence after you're dead. You need threat of consequence when you get found out.
And don't bother wittering on about child abuse. Consequences can be as simple as missing out on ice cream, or being sent to their room with NO electronics, not being allowed out to play, having their games consoles removed for a period of time, removal of mobile phone... These days there are a whole load of ways to show people that actions have consequences.
There is no need to bring a deity into it. Apart from anything else, which one do you choose? That's not faith. That's just picking the best options for the promised afterlife.
Consequences should follow actions, not be used as some vague threat of what will happen after you're dead.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Let me put it this way. The speed of light is 300 million meters a second. Can you then come and say that actually no its actually 200 million meters a second? No you can't because that is a universal law. You have a humanist moral system meaning the human norm is what dictates morality. If human norm dictated that stealing was wrong could I then not go and say 'no stealing is OK so long as I do it'? Dictators, especially atheist communist dictators do it all the time, as have democracies.
I agree that there are certain things all people agree is bad or good, but such accusations wrest on good will and good will alone if they are not backed by the will of an omnipotent diety. There is a reason why monotheism reigns supreme its because it works.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
If your deity is so omnipotent, why is there death, disease, war, crime, suicide, loneliness, dictators, and all the rest of it? Why do people die in earthquakes and tsunamis? Why do babies die? What have they done wrong to deserve short, painful lives?
A lot of people steal. People murder. A 6 year old girl was murdered on the island I'm from a couple of days ago by a 16 year old boy. What is your god going to do about that? Is he going to make it any easier for the family to have lost the wee girl? Is he going to make the murderer pay for his crime? No. It's down to human beings to do that, because if there is a god, he is a right fucker for allowing shit like that to happen, and I wouldn't want anything to do with him for that alone.
Morality can be taught without your stick-and-carrot deity. There were morals before the Abrahamic religion even thought of moving out of the desert, and there could be again if people were actually taught moral standards, and consequences of actions. As it is, we have feral children who have no moral compass whatsoever, even within religious settings, who go out and steal, murder, rape, fornicate, and all the rest of it.
And then you guys sit and whine about a lack of morals when I know for a fact that if you were Chad, you'd be screwing more than a carpenter with a fetish for joining objects using an incline plane wrapped helically around an axis.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
OK. You have the most normal everyday copy paste opinion. Your opinion is the opinion of the average American(or some other capitalist country) consumer. That enough should ring some alarm bells.
Asking if there's a God why is there suffering is a silly question. A theist can easily say this world is imperfect and that true salvation will happen after death if you live by Gods rules. If this world was heaven then there would be no test of free will.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
I live in the UK. I was brought up with morals and manners, without the need for a deity looking over my shoulder. I was taught that actions have consequences. I was taught to take responsibility. I was taught to treat everyone the way I would like to be treated myself.
A theist will waffle about heaven and hell, how people will get their comeuppance in whatever passes for an afterlife, depending on the deity.
BUT, someone could be a complete bastard for their whole life, do a deathbed conversion, gain absolution, and still go to heaven, according to many scriptures. How is that in any way being punished for daily transgressions and sins?
It's a load of old garbage. You should face the consequences of your actions while you are still alive. You should live honestly and morally because doing otherwise has consequences, not because some sky fairy appeared in some hallucination out in the middle of the desert however many millennia ago.
And do tell how a deity, who is supposed to be a loving one, a forgiving one, when they gave man free will then punished him for using it? Isn't that just a bit on the mean, malicious and nasty side? It's like giving a child a toy, then beating him for playing with it. That would be classed as child abuse.
My opinion is my own. Don't you think that if a lot of people agree with it, it may well have some merit? You try to dismiss it by bringing up consumerism, but that has nothing to do with morality, manners and common decency. There is no need for a god for any of that stuff, just people being taught properly, not left to their own devices, being nasty little rude bastards.
People need to take some responsibility. You'll notice most of the degeneracy started when the bleeding-hearts came storming out and took discipline out of schools and away from parents, because it might damage the precious little darlings. Kids were no longer taught about actions and consequences. They were no longer punished for wrongdoing. They were told about their RIGHTS, and taught that their rights transcended the rights of every other person on the planet.
Stop relying on a deity to fix things. It's just shirking responsibility yet again.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Ahh I see. You are looking at this issue from a very personal point of view. If you look at religion personally then it turns into a stupid woo-woo hippie spirituality thing. In that sense your perspective makes sense. If I looked at religion from a personal perspective I would think its was a nuisance too.
But at least try and look at things from a historical distance instead of personally. Religion is not better because of its philosophy or because people are convinced of God; religion gets its legitimacy almost exclusively from it's practical benefits. I personally have not confirmed a God exists and neither has anyone else alive, so I don't 100% believe. But you know what I do believe in? My religious community, the Ummah as we Muslims say. I don't need to read Kant or Leibnitz to see with my own two eyes the balance of a religious system. I don't care how clever your little platitudes about humanism is, it won't provide me a stable family like Islam will. I see how you people raise your sons and daughter all the time and I am disgusted. I don't want a life like that.
Either ways it doesn't matter. Are you a white middle class Briton?
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
From a historical perspective, it's still just a load of oral history that has been mistranslated, re-translated, picked apart, made up, and exaggerated.
Religion only gets it's legitimacy from the gullible who felt the need to believe in one sky fairy over others, then fight about who has the best sky fairy.
If there's one thing that has caused more war, division of peoples, hindering of progress, death and destruction, it's religion. Ankhenaten tried to bring monotheism to the Egyptians, and they resisted and went back to the old gods. Christianity mostly wiped out paganism, burning and killing heretics as the division between Catholic and Protestant widened, and still causes division today (look at Northern Ireland for an example). Then there was the subjugation of the natives in America, because they were heathens, and had to be converted to Christianity. Don't forget the tribes in Africa, and indigenous peoples all over the world being converted to Christianity and Islam (although Islam mostly stuck to the desert while the European Christians did their thing). You've got the Crusades and the fight for the Holy Land between faiths that worshipped the same bloody god, but just couldn't agree on how to worship and who was a prophet, who was the son of said god, and who owned "the holy land", and it's still a war zone centuries later.
Why can't a community just be a community without the need for bringing religion into it? I come from an island that is a community without any need for everyone to worship the same way, or indeed the same god, or any god. People look out for each other. They care about each other. The crime rate is normally pretty minimal until this horrible week. I remember only one other murder on the island, and that was about 30 years ago. In the spring, the Police have the onerous task of stopping traffic to allow the swans to take their cygnets down to the sea from the castle moat. That's because people look out for one another, because people respect others.
You can sit there and try to be all morally superior because of your deity, and try to poke holes because of who I am and how I was brought up, but I know I was brought up well, and I don't care if people worship a deity or not, don't care what colour their skin is, what they look like, whether they have a disability, whether they are young or old, I will continue to treat people the way I would like to be treated, because to do otherwise would be an anathema to me.
If more people had been brought up the way I was, the world wouldn't be so crap. And it doesn't need religion to bring children up well.
The law is secular. It doesn't require a deity to ask people to treat each other decently. Why does anyone in these days of science need to pay money to a church that is already wealthy? Is it a bribe to a corruptible god to overlook any transgressions? Because that's what it looks like.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
This is one of those stupid platitudes I'm talking about. Do me a favor, go to your nearest university, go to the history department, and repeat that to every professional historian there, and then tell me what they thought.
Then you can apologize to me for making me read your word-salad essays.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
I won't apologise. My father, who is quite educated and used to be a lay preacher in the Church of Scotland, used that one single fact as part of his children's address and then sermon for one of his Sunday services.
The Crusades. The Spanish Armada. Iraq. Northern Ireland. Jerusalem. Syria. Islamophobia in the modern age. Subjugation of "heretics" in the 14th and 15th centuries. Enforced conversions during conquest. Wiping out of indigenous polytheism. The Inquisition. The Holocaust.
It's not just a platitude. It is the truth. It's why we had the Dark Ages, while the Church ruled that any progress was heresy and banned it. People were ruled heretics and burned, or hanged and burned or many other nasty ways to make people die.
I notice that you have neatly sidestepped every other question. You seem to prefer attempting ad-hominem rather than actual answers to the points I've brought up.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
We wouldn't have developed large urban centers without religion. Most of the world's cultures would never form if it weren't for religion. The basis of equality and individual rights also comes from religion. Actually, it is more accurate to say that these ideas are self evident but solidified in religion. This is why I think that statement waz dumb. There's a host of other things which usher conflict more than religion ever could. You don't have to read books to know this, common sense will do; if you insult my religion I will be mad, if you steal my property I will harm you. Religion is the ultimate mythos, and mythos are needed in order to form largescale cooperation. The idea of the United Kingdom is a myth which does not exist under a microscope yet without it life would be chaotic.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
Religions formed to answer questions that science wasn't around to answer: why does the sun come up? Why do the crops grow? Will it rain? Will there be a good harvest? Will the Nile inundation be good this year? Why is the water turning red? Why is there a plague of frogs? Where did all the locusts come from?
Yes, other things usher conflict, such as dominion of territory, but at the other end of it, you get the religious nutters deciding that Native Americans are worshipping the wrong gods, and are ergo heathens and savages and need to be converted or they die, or savage African tribes that need to be converted or die, or Incas that need to convert or die, infidels that need to convert or die, heretics that need to convert or die... Can you see a pattern here?
The basis of equality and individual rights was around in the days of cave peoples whose gods were numerous and explained the basics, like rain, sun, eclipses, plant growth, and to whom they appealed for a good hunt and good harvests in autumn. Urban centres came about because people congregate to live together in communities, as it is easier to have many people working together than it is to try to scrape subsistence on your own. People have lived in nomadic tribes for millennia, and at one stage in evolution, most decided to settle down and become farmers instead of hunter/gatherers. This wasn't to do with religion, but to do with stability of food.
Religions have gone from a worship of nature, giving back to the land, not taking more than was needed, living within the land.
The thing that drove urbanisation was commerce, not religion. Cultures have existed without religion too, like the Mongols, who took a lot of territory without having any significant religion.
What you're doing with supporting this thread is not even the equality that you say religion gives, because Islam is not a religion of equality. It's a religion that subjugates women and turns them from people to property, even after death.
1 bcat124 2018-05-11
Most pathetic and disgusting cope. Islam is a false religion to bluepill subhumans like you and make them mohammad's little cucks for eternity.
You really think you'd get a wife in a muslim society? All the imams and rich people + high status get 4 wives each, and they leave more than half the population slaving away in lifelong slavery , and they keep them on leash with the fake promise of 72 virgins.
U ain't gettin shit when u die bitch, and u gonna spend ur whole life cucking for your neighbor's imam and his 4 wives, while he tells you that you'll get rewarded in the afterlife, and you're gonna believe it all like a pathetic little cuck.
Muslims are worse than Numales.
1 Hoeasss 2018-05-11
astaghfirullah
1 HandInSand121 2018-05-11
And this is probably why nobody likes you. Choose your words. No one is going to be on your side if you vent like a 5 year old lol.
1 MozzerDozzer 2018-05-11
Islamofag saying "this is why you're an incel".
Charming.
1 IronMeltsinmyHands 2018-05-11
And what if you DO get rewarded in the afterlife?
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Where the fuck did you get this notion that there are people walking around with 4 wives in Muslim countries? I lived in South Asia and Middle East for a while, did not meet a single polygamous family. You cant just grab a woman by the ear and make her your wife. Theres a whole legal process. Are you fucking stupid?
1 CompetitiveLayer 2018-05-11
We don't want you here fucktard
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Yeah nigga whatever we finna replace your culture with ours soon anyway.
1 Ub2w 2018-05-11
Wow i don't know turkey have such ideological drives as a nation(with the exception of their rabid Nationalism/Militarism of course).
1 war-against-flames 2018-05-11
Thats not turkish flag. Though ottomans used a green version of their flag to symbolize the caliphate.
Also flag that is approvable for islam is the flag of saudi arabia or isis.
1 Ub2w 2018-05-11
Yeah it was sarcasm, brainlets really love to use the Ottoman moon and star as the Cross" of the Islam.
The prophet used green and black flags to lead his armies, so not even ISIS or Saudi Arabia flags can be used as symbols of Islam, islam is iconoclast.
1 war-against-flames 2018-05-11
Didnt rashidun armies use green and black flags with religious script(shahada or smt similar). I remember ottomans using something similar to saudi flag's red version too in the 18th century.
I blame western countries for the use of ottoman flag. voltaire called all muslims turks for example. Western Civilizations are rather clueless when it comes to islam and its history
1 Ub2w 2018-05-11
Nah, the one's that started the tradition of putting the shahada in banners were the Afghans during their wars against the british, The Prophet choose the green color as the solely representation of his armies(cause green was associated with the paradise)
1 m41aspd 2018-05-11
My friend works with a mullah and he says that they ran out of female virgins centuries ago so they only give 72 male virgins now.
1 based_meme 2018-05-11
top kek
1 SpartanShitlord 2018-05-11
This is so true. It's time to take the Muslim Pill.
1 HungIncel69 2018-05-11
I'd jump on the islam train in the west if we could put all these fucking sjw roasties in their place and take their rights away like the subhumans they are.
1 fschmidt 2018-05-11
We can if enough people like you in the west support Islam.
1 fschmidt 2018-05-11
As the comments here show, most incels here are morons. Islam is obviously a vast improvement over degenerate modern culture. Anyone interested in real solutions like Islam should come to /r/WhitePill.
1 CursedCel 2018-05-11
Allah bless. How do I go about converting? Just show up at my local mosque?
1 fschmidt 2018-05-11
Yes
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Go to the masjid. Make friends with the young people there. Let them know about you. The imam will then convert you though anybody can do it. As for a wife, be a pious Muslim with a stable income and families will start to consider you. Notice I said family, not woman, the fathers and brothers usually decide. You will know the true meaning of brotherhood.
1 CompetitiveLayer 2018-05-11
OK, I'm no hard core feminist, but I agree with a LOT of it (feniminsm). You really need to stop being so hateful
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Lmao shut up ur a troll account.
1 Sniveling_Cur 2018-05-11
The only morons are muslimcels who think that:
If you want white sharia as some kind of retarded revenge because women are not attracted to unattractive males that's your stupidity, but if you think going muslim will actually improve your personal, incel situation you're coping harder than average /r/wholesomememes poster.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Are you mentally retarded? You're telling me you've never seen an immigrant Muslim couple where the husband looks like a fat goat and still had a loyal wife with 7 kids? Serious question: do you live in rural or suburban America?
1 Sniveling_Cur 2018-05-11
The fact you assume she's loyal puts you at the level of a normtard who comes here and say "I see ugly guys with cute girlfriends all the time"
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
I didn't say a Muslim woman doesn't have urges of hypergamy or hamstering or any of the urges Western women have. I'm saying that the Islamic system reinforces loyalty and obedience with social ostracism and brute force if nessecary.
And calm the fuck down, inceldom isn't your religion, you can acknowledge when there are systems which have actual solutions to the problem.
1 fantastischz 2018-05-11
r/ice_poseidon is leaking...
1 420epic69 2018-05-11
Fuck islam. I can't wait until we nuke those dumb fucks.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
I hope your kids and grandkids pray towards Mecca 5 times a day.
1 amunoa 2018-05-11
""Equality between genders""
1 MozzerDozzer 2018-05-11
In the end, what may drive me off this sub is not constant visitations by clueless newfags but Islamofags.
How some people think that they will not be affected by the usual human sexual dynamics should they convert to Islam is beyond me.
Teaches women respect - kek, anyone who wishes to commit adultery is just extremely careful about it. Adultery still happens in Islam.
Shames degeneracy - Well, depending on your definition of degeneracy. If you think that banging young boys is not a degeneracy then, by all means, go ahead.
Equality between genders - that's rich.
72 virgins - for martyrs.
Right, in the end, it's still humans who exercise those rights. Religious laws are still the laws of man and there are workarounds for everything. In my humble opinion, anyone who falls for the "Islam is the religion for incels" meme is a moron but you do you guys.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Islam never said it can change human nature, but it will certainly control it. Also, your comment sounds very low IQ. Are you a redneck?
1 GrinchBear 2018-05-11
You might have better luck moving to s country where this is the norm than getting it put into major practice here.
1 DEPTHERROR 2018-05-11
Cope AWALT. Unless you move to Saudi and get shat on for being foreign gl with that.
1 yass2k1 2018-05-11
I'm a Muslim 72 virgins is a mistranslation it actually says raisins or something I'm not sure what it means by that though plus just so people know and I know you said it in your post but I want to explain more due to s lot of misconceptions. Women are equal in Islam and in fact the mother is above the father so don't think Islam allows you to have sex slaves or something plus you can't have sex before marriage you also shouldn't wank and you need to pray 5 times a day and fast during Ramadan also donating I think it was at least 2.5% of your annually income to charity plus there are other rules I'm just listing the main ones. I doubt any of you were serious about joining Islam but I do see how there are e people like incels who do dumb shit that is completely against Islam say they are following Islam and give Muslims a bad name
1 Startheon 2018-05-11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aCclf8IUvA look at how black pilled Muhammed pbuh was. Islam is the ultimate way of life even if you dont believe in god
1 Ub2w 2018-05-11
Yeah it was sarcasm, brainlets really love to use the Ottoman moon and star as the Cross" of the Islam.
The prophet used green and black flags to lead his armies, so not even ISIS or Saudi Arabia flags can be used as symbols of Islam, islam is iconoclast.
1 broscientologist 2018-05-11
Jizya is an Islamic tax that is specifically for the poor, women, children & the elderly. You are obligated to care for any other believer.
1 samurai96 2018-05-11
Yeah nigga whatever we finna replace your culture with ours soon anyway.
1 MagratM 2018-05-11
From a historical perspective, it's still just a load of oral history that has been mistranslated, re-translated, picked apart, made up, and exaggerated.
Religion only gets it's legitimacy from the gullible who felt the need to believe in one sky fairy over others, then fight about who has the best sky fairy.
If there's one thing that has caused more war, division of peoples, hindering of progress, death and destruction, it's religion. Ankhenaten tried to bring monotheism to the Egyptians, and they resisted and went back to the old gods. Christianity mostly wiped out paganism, burning and killing heretics as the division between Catholic and Protestant widened, and still causes division today (look at Northern Ireland for an example). Then there was the subjugation of the natives in America, because they were heathens, and had to be converted to Christianity. Don't forget the tribes in Africa, and indigenous peoples all over the world being converted to Christianity and Islam (although Islam mostly stuck to the desert while the European Christians did their thing). You've got the Crusades and the fight for the Holy Land between faiths that worshipped the same bloody god, but just couldn't agree on how to worship and who was a prophet, who was the son of said god, and who owned "the holy land", and it's still a war zone centuries later.
Why can't a community just be a community without the need for bringing religion into it? I come from an island that is a community without any need for everyone to worship the same way, or indeed the same god, or any god. People look out for each other. They care about each other. The crime rate is normally pretty minimal until this horrible week. I remember only one other murder on the island, and that was about 30 years ago. In the spring, the Police have the onerous task of stopping traffic to allow the swans to take their cygnets down to the sea from the castle moat. That's because people look out for one another, because people respect others.
You can sit there and try to be all morally superior because of your deity, and try to poke holes because of who I am and how I was brought up, but I know I was brought up well, and I don't care if people worship a deity or not, don't care what colour their skin is, what they look like, whether they have a disability, whether they are young or old, I will continue to treat people the way I would like to be treated, because to do otherwise would be an anathema to me.
If more people had been brought up the way I was, the world wouldn't be so crap. And it doesn't need religion to bring children up well.
The law is secular. It doesn't require a deity to ask people to treat each other decently. Why does anyone in these days of science need to pay money to a church that is already wealthy? Is it a bribe to a corruptible god to overlook any transgressions? Because that's what it looks like.