True. No one wants an ugly or an awkward person, and there are plenty of average and good looking people to go around. Sad truth. But it’s not like the same doesn’t apply to ugly and awkward women (though maybe to a lesser extent since men seem to be very desperate and willing to fuck anything)

True

You are. You can also have money, talent, an ability to make people laugh, be a fun person to be around... none of these are going to make you get laid like 50 Cent but you will in all likelihood find a girlfriend at some point. Attraction is much vaster and stranger than you know. All your beliefs are self-pity justification with no basis in reality.

Lmao...What a load of horse-shit

You probably read two books in your entire pathetic life and now all of a sudden you know things and feel the need to tell people about life and shit.

GTFO

You know nothing. Interesting you say to read a book. I think reading good literature really could help you

What could really help me is you to GTFO

But why would I? You guys are like a car wreck I can't look away from

Money, talent

You are proving to us foids are Gold diggers lmao

Truth hurts lol. Lucky bitches...

You say lucky bitches like you wish it was you...?

Yeah I wish I could snag Stacys, not that I want to fuck Chads, dumbass lol.

I see that your vast experience with every woman has led you to a completely logical conclusion about woman.

Hey, look! It's a bird! NO! It's a PLANE! NOT AT ALL!!! It's a rational human being in this sketchy ass subreddit!

numale humor makes me sick

Numale?

you

Obviously you're fuckin retarded

Some of us are not incels, we just like the sub.

By your logic, you would have to have been in a relationship with every single woman on the planet before you can make any judgements, which is just ridiculous. Do you understand how statistics work?

Do you understand how unreasonable this entire post is? I have never cheated. None of my friends has ever cheated. In fact, I've been loyal to one man my entire teenage and adult life.

Look, not every woman is a liar. Not every woman cheats. It's unreasonable to assume so based on the fact that some women do. What this post is is an inaccurate sweeping generalization.

Women lie when it comes to what they look for in a man. They don't care about personality, they don't care about how respectful you are, they care about looks and status. Of course not every woman cheats, but they are easily put into positions where cheating can happen. I'm also sure that many women do cheat, studies (on the high end) have put the numbers close to 70%.

It is not a sweeping generalization to believe that women go for attractive guys, and will monkey branch to a better man the second he becomes available and she has an out.

I've been dating the same man for almost 7 years now. I watched him grow from a child to the man he is now. Sure, there are more attractive men. Our best friend is super hot and I'd totally hit that if I was single. But I'm not about to make myself single to do so or cheat on my boyfriend.

Now i get that my relationship isn't the end all example of relationships. But I personally do go for personality when it comes to relationships. A guy that's nice and interesting is fun to date and even if he's bad at sex, he can be taught to get better. Hell, if I was in the dating market, a guy that's nice, respectful, and funny is just as likely to get laid by me than someone who's boring but hot. And I'd say in my mid twenties, at least half of my girlfriends think the same way.

Regardless if you prioritize personality or not, there is still a threshold of physical attractiveness you must meet. It's non-negotiable, and many incels (and unattractive men in general) get disheartened because they do not meet that threshold.

at least half of my girlfriends think the same way.

And what does the other half think

Various things. Some don't care for sex at all, some don't want to date, some have super high standards, and some are in happy relationships and don't think about other men at all

Personality does matter. But so do looks - most people are looking for both. You don't need to be 10/10 supermodel-level attractive, but you do need to be above a certain threshold of physical attractiveness in order for your personality to even be considered.

This is a common misunderstanding when people talk about the importance of personality and looks - they're implicitly excluding the ugly people who fall below the threshold right from the start. Sure, most women would prefer a funny, interesting, nice guy with average or slightly above-average appearance over a really hot guy with a terrible personality. But they aren't even considering the ugly guys - it's as if they don't exist.

I dated an overweight and balding 40 year old for a year. Lots of people made fun of me for it, asked me how I was even able to have sex with him. I told them it's because I loved him enough that I didn't care how he looked. One thing I find interesting about incels is that most of them would refuse sex from an ugly woman, when they themselves preach that women are the shallow ones, will only have sex with Chads, and turn around and say that they would only have sex with a Stacy. I'm curious why it's okay for men to discriminate based solely on looks while women are called shallow if they do the same?

I dated an overweight and balding 40 year old for a year.

I mean, lots of stats show that women view about 80% of men as below average. Your description, while fairly empty, sounds very average to me, maybe even above average depending on his face. Almost all of us are below the actual average.

One thing I find interesting about incels is that most of them would refuse sex from an ugly woman

Oh that's funny! Usually the stereotype I hear is that they'll fuck almost anything that moves. Incels barely even gave standards, but even the ugliest of ugly women aren't going for the ugly men.

Can you link me to these stats?

OkCupid (which is what's usually cited) actually deleted their own statistical analysis artical a couple days ago due to the Toronto attack. I guess they wanted to cover it up.

Anyway, I found a Reddit post talking about it (just ignore the comments).

You can also search "okcupid 80%". The article has been deleted like I said, I was hoping to find an archived version of it but I'm on my phone and don't care enough to use my google-fu right now.

Lastly, it's just anecdotally obvious. Every time I've heard/seen a girl talk about what an average man looks like, the guy is usually quite attractive. But, that's just anecdotal, of course.

That entire article is seriously abusing that statistic. You are right. Its purely anecdotal. None of it is based in fact. They didn't poll women based on "would you treat these men as if they're invisible, like slaves, like subhuman" they polled them based on physical atractivnes. Everything else is making assumptions and jumping to conclusions based on that statistic. Only the top %20 of men get their pick of sexual partners? Give me a break. This is an extreme dramatization. People skew the meaning of statistics to fit their agenda all the time. Plus, this is a poll based on female users of okcupid. Not a poll based on every woman in the world or even every woman in America (or whatever country you're in). This article is not worth the read. These statistics mean little to nothing.

Maybe I shouldn't have linked the Reddit post... I wasn't trying to cite that, I was just trying to prove that the statistic exists. TRP interprets it in different opinionated ways though.

I think it would be nearly impossible to fund a full unbiased scientific study though. I'm surprised OkCupid even did it, but no researcher is going to risk proving an incel correct, so it's not going to be tested. And hey, maybe I'm wrong, but based on your description of your boyfriend, you're just another example. He sounds incredibly average.

There's never going to be a risk of proving an incel correct. It's literally impossible.

Oh come on don't be ridiculous. Just because we have had sex doesn't mean we are wrong about literally everything. Im pretty sure frogs are amphibians, can you prove me wrong?

The OkCupid analysis was removed because of this specifically. Maybe their data was faulty or something, but it was risky for then to publicize it.

Of course I can't prove you wrong about that, frogs are amphibians. And that's the worst example you could possibly give, knowing basic science is not mutually exclusive to being or not being an incel. But don't even try to take this to that extreme, I'm assuming you know a hyperbole when you see one.

"okcupid 80%"

Wayback machine to the rescue: https://web.archive.org/web/20131122031503/http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

how the hell did they let you into Dartmouth?

Please tell me why my wife doesn't care about my personality. You haven't me. Nor my wife.

But you made a broad generalization so please now defend it or admit you can't.

Good luck. Or you can admit that you are simply speaking in biased generalizations. So which one is it?

I got into Dartmouth because I worked my ass off in high school and during my military service. I never said that personality doesn't matter, I said that personality doesn't matter if you don't meet the base level of attractiveness. You obviously meet that base level since you have a wife.

But you still have thousands of ugly guys who are getting into relationships, having sex and then getting married if they want.

You are, but you all seem to filter out data you don't like because it attacks your main theme.

You got rid of me because I managed to get married. I'm sure if I was the same me and I just made the choice to call myself an incel you would take me in as I long as I followed the rules.

But, growing up, I could have been one of you. I first got laid at 23. In my case, I could have given up, labeled myself an incel and had that be that. But I made a better choice.

I could have joined your club and had my fate sealed.

Your status is up to you just like I could have called myself and incel, but I didn't. You have that same choice.

But you didn't answer his question. Do you understand how statistics work?

most women cheat. Out of all of my female high school friends, when they come and visit us (they all have boyfriends in their respective college btw) they try to fuck this one guy in our friend group. Every fucking time. They flirt so aggressively to the point where theyre almost straight up asking to fuck him despite their relationships. Also the girl this guy is dating cheated on her previous boyfriend with him. Cheating is so fucking commonplace with women. The weird thing is that the guy feels so bad about it and wont even consider cheating on his girl. I remember when my friends came on to him he was so distraught cause he couldnt believe that they would cheat with such little remorse.

You clearly don't

Exactly. They don't come here to prove us wrong or change our minds, they come here to try to get us to shut up.

Saw this in the media's response as well

Literally zero refutation to blackpill concepts such as mate choice in humans (science) or the differences in evolutionary roles (science) from which anyone can make clear, logical deductions that the male sex will have to work harder to gain recognition, validation, and positive attention from the opposing sex: no, just, "We can't let their toxic ideology get out!"

The only counterarguments they have are anecdotes. That's it, the scientific studies on r/BlackpillScience, the Tinder experiments, the increasing amounts of 18-35 year old men who haven't had sex within the last year, etc, women don't care about that.

Women just want us to sit down, shut up, and "play the game" because they know that if the majority of men had blackpill ideas (not even fully blackpilled, just realizing how fake women are), it would hurt women's dating and casual sex prospects.

You're so close to a revelation here. No one is saying sexual selection in humans isn't a thing. It's the next part that's important:

males will have to work harder to gain recognition and positive attention from the selective sex

Yes, that's how that works. So do the work. Don't sit around complaining about how hopeless it is.

Well I don't care if you hate women or believe they are horrible... At the end of the day you are creating more hardship your yourself.

I could sit here and debate my side until I'm blue in the face but honestly where would that get me? Probably being told I'm a whore who is lieing to make myself feel better, what's the point? I'd much rather keep my opinions to myself and let you all live your lives blindly.

I just don't see the point in trying to discuss topics with angry and close minded individuals.

I don't hate women at all. I simply point out that women aren't perfect angels just by virtue of being female, and that they are shallow (like all human beings), and that they do care about looks as one of the most important factors in dating and choosing a mate. Everyone else decides that you're sexist or a misogynist or you hate women, just because I point these things out. I think the problem is too many people come in here thinking we hate women, insult us for that, and then no real discussion happens because side A opens by calling us rapists and woman haters, so side B isn't going to be respectful if that's how it's going to be.

So how am I living my life blindly? I'm simply pointing out that women are only truly attracted to a small group of men, and if you aren't in that small group, dating is going to be hell for you until you're in your 30's and the ball gets in your court during the dating game.

You choose to group all women in one... That's like someone saying Hitler was a nazi and a racist so all white people are Nazis or racists.

And more so I'm referring to this rediculous post... We are all liars? Ok sure, if that's what you want to believe then I won't argue.

I'm grouping all women in a single group by saying they like attractive men? The reason he called you liars is because women don't tell the truth about what they look for in men. They talk about personality and being good or virtuous and drive and what have you, but then they go for a tall, white, good looking douchebag. They are attracted to looks and status, above all. Nothing else but that matters, yet women still like to talk about "personality" when it's been proven that looks > everything else.

Well I'm a typical white female dating a Pakistani man who is 5'7... I met him on an online video game 9yrs ago and fell for him before I even knew how he looked. We have been together now 8yrs.

So take that for what it's worth.

That's great and I'm sure you guys are happy together.

Sorry if I sounded like a bitch I just hate how a few superficial women skew all your ideas of us. I hate that you guys feel like this but I find debating ends in am excuse as to why what I say doesn't matter.

I'm all for debating your ideas but I just don't need to be attacked in the process... And I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I also can only speak from my perspective and that is that I'm a pansexual women who values a man's brain over looks.. Don't get me wrong looking good is like a bonus but I don't need it to fall for a guy.

Call me a liar or what ever but that's my 2 cents. I've dated some really good looking guys and some really not so good looking guys based on societies standards.. but to me they were amazing people who I felt very attracted to.

I think you're more the exception than the rule. Most women are extremely shallow hypocrites which this enables us to make broad generalisations.

I think she has a point.

You guys do filter, a lot.

I mean you place all women in one big category and just eliminate those woman who don't fit your criteria. You lump males into one big category and you filter out any data that proves you wrong.

All women will do this. All women will do this other thing. All guys who are short or ugly or whatever have zero chance ever.

And you just get rid of any idea that doesn't match your claim.

You shut door and then complain that there are bunch of doors shut. And I'm saying you. I'm just saying that this movement has a lot of blinders on. If you want there to be more open doors you must first open them. You can't shut all doors and then complain that they are shut.

Have you thought of the possibility that maybe we're the ones with the doors open only to have them slammed shut by women?

How many rejections does it take for us to endure before you've satisfied your point of view. I think people like you come here thinking that inceldom is some lifestyle fad that we choose to live by like a juice diet. No, most of us here are not incels by the choice of our own actions but by the ludicrous standards that women have put on us.

I didn't get laid till I was 23.

I should be incel material. If this place was avaailble, I'm sure I would drank the kool aid and given up hope.

Or, I was able to figure things out and know what I was doing that wasn't working and then I magically was able to start getting into relationships and magically I was able to have sex with women.

You are here by your design. If any of you stopped coming to this sub and started doing other things you could make different choices that would lead to relationships and sex.

If this place existed when I was in my 20's I would have been just as sad and depressed as the rest of the people here. Being incel is a choice.

Are you white?

The fucking poster child for your sub is white dude.

Are you really going to play the I only started dating because I was white card?

Seriously. Is it one excuse after another.

Yes. I'm white. Your point?

I was just curious. The point is that not all incels are alike. Some are just downright hopeless, others really just have a hard time because of what we are.

I guess you've never been told directly "Sorry, I don't date white people". Yeah, until you've experienced racism in the dating world, I don't think you're entitled to lecture us on this matter.

What you are..........

I had what you were. I hadn't been laid until I was 23. And then I figured it out and I turned it all around.

What a person is and isn't is a lot more open than this sub wants to think. It is safe to think in narrow perspectives. But if you challenge those ideas you can find success.

I was one of you until I wasn't. And before you say suvivorship bias, if I was here I would not have survived. For many this place is a prison which they walk into.

I have a lot of weird friends who have dated women. Or have had sex. Or have been in relationships. Short, balding, fat. Or any combo of those two. And for everyone saying that I don't know how Tinder works my response is simply why are you still on Tinder. You can meet people in other ways. Online dating isn't the only way to meet people.

Good on you then that you got dealt the get out of jail card. Have a happy life.

I didn't get dealt anything.

I worked at it. And I struggled. And I failed. and yes I got stood up and all the shit that comes with dating.

But I'm not any more special here.

Just that based off your idea of Chad he doesn't quite fit your cookie cutter mold. Furthermore I don't have a tinder and he has my Facebook password cause I don't hide it... He also has my cell password and we live together...

So what does this prove?

Lol i just realized why am I even explaining myself, it doesn't matter what I say. You believe what you want and hey I'm happy in my healthy relationship soo who cares what you think.

I get you are angry but there is really no need to be an asshole. Have a great day! And I hope things work out for you

Lol I let my frustration get the better of me actually, because I hate felling like anything I say isnt of value... I could sit here and argue with you but I'm aware I would be wasting my time... So I apologize... Have a great day.

She needs to defend her because you just attacked her. You accused of something with no evidence. You didn't wait to see if she was sleeping around or texting other guys. You just said she was.

And then you get shocked when she gets defensive.

You attacked her.

I understand where you're coming from, and you're right, you actually put your money where your mouth is and proved that you are dating a short(er) Pakistani guy. A lot of times, women come here and say the same things you do, but then when asked who their boyfriend is, he's usually tall, white, and good looking.

Ya well these girls aren't fooling anyone and honestly looks fade... Date a kind hearted person who gets you and you will never regret it.

Let them waste their time on fuckboys who treat them like shit... Eventually we can only hope that these ladies pull their head out of their ass and grow up.. geez

This whole white foid / sand curry thing has to be a troll lmao. If it is, then kudos. But I'm just gonna step in and say that Chad_Chasing is the best troll of all time.

Guess you will just have to take my word for it... Because I'm not trolling in the slightest.

Sterry likes that brown sugar y'all. Teehee.

Lol I do! Teehee

whats your weight

130lbs

Women are most shallow between the ages of 19-35. You probably met him before turning 19. But either way unless you have dated mostly average looking guys, dating one non-average guy in your whole entire dating life doesn't count.

I've dating all types of men, some good looking some not so good looking based of societies standards... Also I met him on a video game when I was 18 but we met in person the first time at 19. I didn't know how he looked before that.

The drive to protect the "sisterhood" is so super hardwired that the average woman will parade and degrade her partner if it means winning few social points among the peers. She'll tell everybody that "he's ugly", "he's Paki" and what have you but she "saw" something in him, "gave him a chance" (notice the language) and even "fell for him before I even knew how he looked". Every single time we talk about this - every. single. time. this shit happens.

Men and women both rate looks highly in mate selection. But men actually rate it as more important than women do.

Going to copy this here.

"My mom married a man who has a birthmark over all four quarters of his body, literally one in a billion as far as deformities go.

My mom was model sized when they met, attractive, smart, and earning more money than he was.

My dad however was a funny ass motherfucker who was also kind, smart, and hard working. Women don't come here because they don't even think about you, not because they can't prove you wrong. They have better things to be doing."

Birthmarks aren't deformities. They aren't even unattractive most of the time.

My dad's is bright fucking purple and bulging, filled with blood clots, hurts in low temperatures, if cut doesn't heal right on its own, and is sensitive to touch (punch it and he'll almost pass out from pain).

This is on all 4 quarters of his body, and tends to constantly throb with a low level of pain he just has learned to live with. Oh, and it caused him to have half a thumb on one hand.

Suppression.

The majority of people coming here arguing against it are bluepilled cucks with roastie wives.

I've heard this term quite a lot recently, it's new to me. What is a roastie? Does it have anything to do with the term "roast someone", as in to make fun of them in jest?

You're a roastie, roastie.

lmao okay first of all, having a lot of sex does not have any effect on how a woman's labia looks even having a baby doesn't do that. So that just boils down to a fundamental lack of understanding of the female anatomy

I hope you weren't expecting me to praise your newfound Google skills.

No haha why would I? I'm just clarifying to you what you don't seem to have the skills to Google, unless you mean the term as just a way of saying "women with multiple sex partners" and not the most common reference I've seen around here, "women with multiple sex partners and large labia due to this"

"women with multiple sex partners"

There's a word for that: sluts.

Why is it considered a bad thing to have multiple sex partners?

Why do you have so many disgusting STDs?

I don't have any

You'd say that even if you were dying from AIDS.

No, if I had syphilis I wouldn't let it get far enough to kill me. You're aware though that having multiple sex partners doesn't make you any more or less susceptible to STD's right? It's having unprotected sex that's dangerous

No physicality = inevitable lies

Or commenting basically is asking for people to say nasty shit to us and it seems like a waste of time. You all think you know women so well so why should we try to change your mind?

Could anyone actually convince you otherwise?

They can convince me. Buy dating me. Words don't mean shit. Practice what you preach.

Well exactly, so the only way to prove it is give you your demands? Please, that's not a debate and all together very childish.

You wanna have a real conversation feel free to message me.

When you guys say you want funny or caring or nice guys, then go on to date abusive 6' tall Chads, then there's really nothing left to say. Action speak louder than words.

Ok so by that statement i must be dating a 6ft male... who treats me like trash?

Yet I'm a white female living in Toronto Canada and dating a Pakistani man who is 5'7 and is an amazingly caring and funny guy...

And I have a tower in Paris that I want to sell.

Yup... Thanks for the chat...

I understand that not all of you want to be given another perspective and that's fine. Honestly keep living your life how you see fit, but don't cry about it if you don't plan to listen.

Like I said, my perspective will change if and when I find a girl that bucks the trend. So far I've met none.

I don't think you would even listen if a women did.. so like I said if you don't plan on listening don't cry about it.

I would totally. But like I said, words mean nothing.

I think the problem here is that we're playing a game of statistics. The reason why many of us can't bring ourselves to grips with what you say is that you're most likely an outlier and thus a freak occurrence.

Tell me, in Toronto, how many other 5'7" brown men are dating white women?

Fair I don't know of many... And I'll give you that.. but to assume we are all liars and untrustworthy isn't fair.

I know the statistics are against us but just assuming our lives revolve around making you miserable is crazy. Nice women exist out there. Furthermore what age range of women were questioned that plays a huge role.

Also swallowing this black pill crap doesn't help your case. I know younger women in their teens or early 20s can be quite mean and frankly unaware of what they want. But as we get older we start to understand what we want in a partner and potential father to our children. I'd hate to go on a date with a guy to find out he believes in a conspiracy that women are all evil and just a bunch of used up beef flaps who lie.

I would have red flags going off thinking is this really the guy I want my children to look up to?

Basically alpha fux beta bux. Girls have fun in their younger days and when they realise they can't afford to anymore, they tie down a nice little provider.

I know younger women in their teens or early 20s can be quite mean and frankly unaware of what they want. But as we get older we start to understand what we want in a partner and potential father to our children.

I love when you disgusting roasties try to refute the blackpill by literally stating the theory you're trying to refute. Don't post again until you know what the fuck you're talking about.

No one in their teens knows what they are doing though... It's called growing up and maturing.. also know as life

Also I'm in an 8yr long relationship so all I can offer is my perspective. If that's not enough then ok carry on.

But fyi even if I was single I wouldn't consider dating anyone with such views. "Hate all women blah blah, they are liars blah blah". I mean what ever lets you sleep at night I guess.

Hatred Is a direct sign of low IQ so thanks but I'll pass.

So you're at least 30. Glad to confirm that you're just another oldie who thinks she has any idea whatsoever of what it's like to date in a social media world.

Yup dismiss any of my logic... And thus proving my point... You guys always find a reason to dismiss anyone's opinion.. btw I'm 28 just to clarify, but hey at least you didn't use my gender as a reason this time. I'm proud of you

Lol wtf "oldie?" If you think 30 is old then that would leave me to believe you're still just a kid

Most guys who post on this sub are 18-22. To them, any woman over 25 is "old" and "used up".

To them

Great fucking mod, good job

Board_Gaming is at least 45, and watching in horror as her face shrivels up and begins to resemble her roast beef flaps.

How old are you

28

My mom married a man who has a birthmark over all four quarters of his body, literally one in a billion as far as deformities go.

My mom was model sized when they met, attractive, smart, and earning more money than he was.

My dad however was a funny ass motherfucker who was also kind, smart, and hard working. Women don't come here because they don't even think about you, not because they can't prove you wrong. They have better things to be doing.

My mom was born in the 60s, so no, I'm talking 80s.

My mom has never cheated on my father, and if she ever felt the need to she'd just leave him. They've been in a committed relationship since they day they met, were engaged at 2 months, and recently celebrated their 30th anniversary together.

As for "riding the cock carousel" she could have if she had wanted to, but my mom (like many of the women you people are so upset about) was very selective about who she wanted to be with. She was a virgin till she married my dad, which she wouldn't have lied about even if she had, because she isn't the kind of woman who thinks sex is evil or bad... she just was raised to wait till marriage, and that's what she did. Hell, she's honest enough with me to let me know that its completely normal for them to have a healthy sex life now in their 50s... something I don't think I needed to know, but whatever.

As for my dad being a "beta"... my dad worked his ass off his whole life to support a family on a single income while my mom homeschooled us, doing a job harder than most with a disability that would have (and doctors have stated this) had most people on disability for the rest of their lives. My dad is more "alpha" than you will ever be, and knows that being a man is about providing for your family, caring for your woman, and being a good example to your kids. He respects my mom, which is one of the many reasons she fell for him in the first place. That trait that you lack is why you'll be on here bitching about never getting laid for the rest of your life.

It’s useless to convince these guys that women aren’t evil succubus that aren’t lying and cheating left and right. They want the onus of their problems to be someone else, because self awareness and self improvement would require the effort they don’t want to expend to be better people.

As a group, probably, but I like to hope that some individuals will see that their argument makes zero sense, and might make an effort to turn their life around.

I mean, I'm sure there are a bunch of teenagers on here that feel depressed and alone, which is totally valid, but hate isn't the way to deal with it. Yes, not being conventionally attractive or having mental issues can make dating (especially in the early years) extremely difficult... but that isn't due to women being shallow... that's due to KIDS being shallow.

Also, no one likes a sulky twat who think's they're deeper than they are with both a superiority and inferiority complex at the same time... make yourself into the kind of person you want to be and a relationship will come, not the other way around.

I remember thinking "Girls don't appreciate nice guys", and truly believing it, I think all guys who aren't conventionally attractive think that at some point, but its a phase to be grown out of, not embraced as a way of life... which is what this sub is doing to be quite honest.

Yes, not being conventionally attractive or having mental issues can make dating (especially in the early years) extremely difficult... but that isn't due to women being shallow... that's due to KIDS being shallow.

I'm 42. Tell me at what age do people grow out of being shallow about looks?

I'm not saying all, but the majority have gained a decent amount of perspective. I know some pretty ugly motherfuckers who are happily married.

Even if you are in the bottom ten percent, that leaves you with the bottom ten percent of women you could be going after (and that's if we go with your assumption that all women are shallow and won't go out with someone less attractive than themselves).

What is far more likely, and is the case with majority of people on this sub, is an attitude issue directed towards women... I've met the incel type in person, they don't hide it nearly as well as they think they do.

Actually, that was your assumption. Not mine. I just copied your words.

You are generalizing. I don't hate women at all. I love them. They just don't love me.

You can't claim to love women and also think they are all shallow, self centered sluts who only care about Chad's or whatever the fuck you call them. The beliefs in this sub are so far away from love... I don't know how anyone could confuse the two. It boggles the mind.

Sorry, where did I call them that? I told you that you were generalizing. Incels aren't some political party with common ideas and beliefs. We are all different. Some of the people here have negative opinions about women, some don't.

You said something. I asked you about it. You decided to completely fabricate what my beliefs are even after I explained to you what I believe. I realize that it's easier to deal with people if you can generalize all of them into being villains but try to focus, please.

So lets get this straight, women aren't shallow, but you weren't able to get a woman at 42 due solely to your looks... do you see the contradiction there?

You said they were shallow. I asked you at what age they stop being shallow. The only contradiction is because you keep talking your words and trying to make it something I said.

You said when do they stop being shallow, which implies explicitly that they are, you even mentioned your age to imply that by 42 you still found them to be shallow.

Either that or your post was completely absent of meaning, word salad. So which is it?

You said they were shallow but they grow out of it. I asked you when you thought they grow out of it. I pointed out that I was 42 so that you wouldn't try to act like I was some young kid who just needed to hold on till some arbitrary age like 25 or 30.

It's OK. You decided that I hate women and I pointed out that I don't. So now you need to twist my words to come up with some version of me hating women in order to prove yourself correct because you couldn't possibly be wrong. I get it.

No, reading your post your meaning is clear, and the act you are doing isn't very convincing in the slightest... you aren't arguing the point, you are trying to discredit me instead because you are unable to validly disprove what I am saying any other way than to make it seem like I'm twisting my words to fit what I need at the moment, which isn't the case in the slightest. If you can't argue the point, argue the man...

So please, if you didn't intend to mean that at 42 you still find women shallow, feel free to clarify your point so that your original comment makes some sort of sense, otherwise you aren't really doing anything but proving that your goal wasn't to communicate anything at all, but to set me up with vague words meant to make any answer I gave one that you could point to and say "He's twisting my words! He's making assumptions!"

Start arguing the point, from the beginning.

OK, fine. You said "Yes, not being conventionally attractive or having mental issues can make dating (especially in the early years) extremely difficult... but that isn't due to women being shallow... that's due to KIDS being shallow."

So at what age do you think that kids who are shallow become women who aren't shallow?

It varies from woman to woman, but on average I'd say anywhere from a year after highschool to mid/late twenties for most. It depends greatly on how sheltered you were as a child, your relationship with your parents, and your overall self awareness.

A surprising amount of people view others as sort of... NPC's to their life, sure they understand they are real, but they don't really grasp the depth of what that means. Until you realize that, you can't really realize how you fit into society and what you should realistically expect from others.

So you're saying that unattractive males are NPCs to women?

I am saying everyone else is an NPC to both male and females before they reach a certain point in maturity... It's like a sliding scale really. When you were very little, you had very little concept that other people were at all different from yourself.... literally, you can test little kids, they don't understand that other people have different likes and dislikes from their own. I like carrot, so you like carrot. I hate broccoli, so you hate broccoli.

Then you progress to understanding that people have different likes and dislikes, but to a certain extent... you're still a selfish little shit. My mom vividly remembers my brother saying "BUT HOW IS THAT FUN FOR ME!!!" When asked to clean his room... hilarious when they're little, but on a full on grown up, we'd call that a sociopath.

Even as a teenager, you don't fully appreciate what your parents do for you. When you move out and start to pay your own bills, buy your own groceries you start to get more of an understanding of just how much work goes in to preparing meals every day, and the idea of a teenager sighing because you made steamed broccoli to go with the chicken you made makes you want to smack their ungrateful little faces that you are trying to keep healthy.

Same goes for relationships... for men and women. We picture ideals, and are disappointed when those ideals aren't met. "The most popular girl as school doesn't like me? What the hell is her problem! Stuck up bitch!."

Meanwhile, the "stuck up bitch" is a teenage girl who has a crush on another guy, he's athletic, but he also likes the same shows she likes, and is really into Harry Potter. So she likes him... The other boy only sees him as a jock, or "Chad", because that's all he cares to know about that other person. Or maybe she's shallow too, she's a teenager, can you really blame her for picking the cute guy? He went after the most popular girl in school after all, isn't like he's much better.

Only when we grow up do we start to think. "Hey, I like that girl at the office who laughs at my jokes. Sure, she isn't a super model, but I'm not either... and besides, she's cute, nice, and seems to be pretty normal... maybe I should go on a date with her and see if we'd get along?"

And I'm am arguing the man because you said I hated women which I don't. Sorry, I missed the part where you admitted that you were wrong about what you said about me.

I didn't, because either you intentionally worded your question that way in order to muddy the point, or just so happened to make your point sound like you were implying at the age of 42 you still find women shallow, either way, I don't owe you an apology. In one case I was right about you, and in the other well, I obviously wasn't arguing against you, just the you you seemed to present through poor word choice, which anyone would understand isn't a reflection on themselves and therefore doesn't require an apology, because it was directed towards a being that simply doesn't exist.

The same way I don't demand an apology from someone who assumes that I, say, don't know what it's like to deal with clinical depression, I correct them and move on, because without the correct information the assumption they had made would be completely correct.

Yes, but people who say that I hate women are wrong. As long as you now know you are wrong, I'll take that as a win.

I am currently assuming you don't hate women. When I did, it was because what you wrote could easily be interpreted as saying "I'm 42 and the women I've met are all still shallow." Now that you have clarified that that isn't what you intended to mean, I am back to assuming that you aren't sexist, as I tend to assume the best in people until proven otherwise.

It's easy to say things on the internet without any proof.

My dad doesn't like having pictures taken of him because of his deformity, basically none of them when he was a kid, but I do have this.

https://i.imgur.com/CAiFOiF.jpg

I mean he is pretty normal looking, I would even say he probably was good looking when he was younger.

He usually stands in a way that hides most of it, and he has a hell of a lot more under his clothing. Also a pit in his chest a bit bigger than a golf ball.

I never said he was an ugly guy, but when they met, my mom was easily 8-9 out of 10. She was literally a size 2, what most women would consider ideal. She made more money than him, and could have had a lot of guys people on here consider "alpha's" or "Chads" or whatever the hell they want to call them. She picked my dad, because he's a good guy.

People on here like to think women are horrible, they aren't. They are human, flawed, but no more so than the rest of us. I don't know how anyone with a decent mother could possibly think so poorly of women as the individuals I've seen on this sub.

I feel sorry for them for that, because it is clear that they weren't taught how women see things, never had positive female role models in their lives, and it's clearly done some lasting damage.

I think The Doors song sums it up pretty nicely,

"People are strange when you're a stranger Faces look ugly when you're alone Women seem wicked when you're unwanted Streets are uneven when you're down."

Times have changed a lot thought between the 60s (or whenever your parents met) and now the age of social media and hypergamy. I don't think all women are horrible but most I have met in my life have been very shallow.

They met in the mid 80s I believe, I was born in 92 after all. They were married in 1988.

And hypergamy is nothing new, and was far more prevalent in the past than it is now. Marriages were trade agreements, nothing more. And one woman's idea of ideal will be drastically different from anothers. For some it is the rich guy who can provide for them, for some it is the poet, the artist. My mom wanted someone who could make her laugh, who was kind. I personally (although male) have always found women who are a little more on the weird side rather interesting.

Women are no different. For men instead of wealth it tends to be looks, which if I'm honest seems a lot less fair... most people tend to work for their money after all, its an indicator of intelligence and drive, of being useful to society... but that isn't really the point.

Men and women are different, but we have a lot more in common than we ever would different from one another. (You have more in common with the woman most like you than you do with the man least like you, not something you can say about... a cow, or a bird, or any "alien" form of life.)

Incels can be funny but no one laughs at them.

Not sure what you mean by that.

Attractive people are perceived as funnier, is what I meant.

And I think you missed the part where he is part purple and with half a thumb, and my mom was at least an 8 out of 10.

Show me where this happens.

or maybe she doesn't want to be a fat guy who jerks off to hardcore porn.

I unfold my hands, millions of tiny folded papers flying out. A single paper flutters at your feet, and you pick it up, unfolding it. Your eyes widened at the words written inside. "this is the dumbest shit i ever read" A single tear rolled down your cheek.

This post really upsets me. I’m a woman who has “rode the dick carousel” a fair amount, while desperately wanting a relationship, but feeling like no one will ever love me. I’m kinda attractive and thin, and most of my partners have been on my level—kinda attractive but with “flaws” like being overweight, balding, shortness, funny teeth, small chins, high voice, whatever. In all my short relationships (even ones where the guy treated me like absolute trash) I never, ever even thought about cheating.

I recently started dating a guy who was “incel” before he met me. I fucking love this dude. I want to marry him someday. I’m terrified that the fact he was exposed to this mentality means that he’ll never trust me. He’ll always have this warped-ass view of women.

I’m a human being. I care about people. Love is actually more important to me than “Chad looks.” I’ve been used and dumped like a sex object more times than I can count, and I’m literally just a collection of insecurities at this point. But I’m not sure he—or any of you—will ever believe that.

I'd say it looks like conspiracy made to get $$ and support from beta faggots but... but... most femoids are too stupid for conspiracy

Truth. The one thing I'll never let go of is how much looks truly matter to women. No going back here.

Women have a variety of personal preferences, same as men, and aren’t constantly looking for the massive gym bro to date. Average-looking men have successful relationships all the time. Women want to be respected, treated well, and treated like a human fucking being. This trash ass pity party is so revolting, that’s why nobody wants to touch your dick.

You don't need to be a massive gym bro as long as you are white, tall and decent looking.

Weird, my boyfriend is brown and 5’5”. He does have a handsome af face though, I’ll give you that.

I respect women. Haven't had any girlfriend yet.

A surface level dive into your post history clearly demonstrates the opposite. You have quite a few problematic, misogynistic posts. Women don’t want to be seen as sexual property for conquest. Your attitudes showing the opposite will project onto your interactions with women. You also aren’t ugly; perhaps you should stop buying into a white supremacist propaganda machine that says you need to be 6’ and white to be happy.

Show me posts which are misogynistic. By that I mean explicitly misogynistic. Not just stuff you disagree with.

For one, women rejecting you isn’t an act of dehumanizing you. The idea that women rejecting anyone is inherently malicious and ill-willed is stripping the woman of her autonomy and personhood. Women are allowed to reject anybody, same as men. By viewing rejection as an inherently malicious act intended to harm you as opposed to do something the woman wants to do is disregarding that freedom choice. It’s also very entitled.

And as I said, there's nothing misogynistic about it. You can disagree with the thought but it's not misogynistic. Putting yourself out there is a brave and frankly very humiliating task. So if a girl rejects you, she's basically rejecting your whole worth. It's dehumanising.

Now misogynistic stuff might be where I call women whores for no reason or talk about how they should be put on leash or that they all belong in the kitchen. Find me a single comment in that vein.

Misogyny exists on a spectrum and is not always the dramatic and violent comments commonplace in this sub. It’s also things like devaluing a woman’s autonomy.

The fact that you’re not getting that is part of the problem.

Again, this is not misogyny. This is not about autonomy. This is about humiliation that a guy faces when he's rejected.

I’m trying to explain how that attitude is misogynistic and you don’t want to see it. Which is fine. But don’t go around with shitty attitudes about women and then wonder why they won’t sleep with you

And I'm telling you there's nothing misogynistic about it. And also, I've not sexually objectified anyone.

We could run this circle all day. In short, yes, not respecting a woman’s freedom to choose, assuming the worst of women and their actions, and ignoring the complexities of women as human beings and belittling them instead to sexual beings you need to conquest, is all misogynistic. Do yourself a favor and leave this cesspool, try to find some outside perspectives and really listen. This sub is bad for your health.

So you are saying that every adult virgin out there is that way because they don't respect women?

There are of course outliers, as there are with absolutely every single thing on this planet. However, being a desperate misogynist isn’t going to get anyone far. I get it, it’s hard to accept that there is work to be done internally before you can see external results, but it’s absurd the mental hoops the incel community will jump through to avoid critical introspection.

So the foreveralones have 80,000 subscribers which is 4 times higher than braincels. How does that make foreveralones the outliers?

I’m 100% not operating under the assumption that all 80k of those subscribers aren’t misogynists.

Why is it that over and over again people come here and ask that everyone takes a moment to look at how this community’s views and behaves towards women and reevaluates it to find more successful relationships, and that argument is completely without merit? Why is that so outlandish as an explanation?

Way to miss the point. You probably just assume that 100% of men hate women and leave it at that.

Because not everybody here hates or despises women. It's crazy to think of men as individuals, I know. But the problem is that the hate came as a result of not having any success. So even if you remove the hate, that still doesn't solve the problem of whatever was keeping them from getting dates in the first place.

I don’t think 100% of men hate women, but I’m not going to generalize a sub for a point because it’s not a valid argument.

Disordered thinking (eg. putting women on a pedestal and feeling entitled to sex in the first place) that breeds the hatred is also misogynistic.

You were happy to generalize everyone in this sub.

So how would you solve the problem? Everyone else wants to solve it with genetic cleansing of ugly male virgins.

Nobody wants to solve it with genetic cleansing, dude. Just start listening to people when they say you’re misogynistic and think about how you can change your attitude. That’s it.

Except I don't hate women. So when people say that I am misogynistic, I know that they don't know what they are talking about.

Misogyny isn’t solely about hatred though. It’s about prejudice. You can have prejudice against women in a number of ways that don’t involve being outwardly violent or hateful.

How am I prejudiced against women?

I can jive with that perspective and it’s true, there are some that will realize the points you’re making and improve.

At the same time, it’s difficult to show any modicum of empathy towards someone that thinks you’re subhuman and, as a group, would sooner advocate to rape you (as I’ve seen in this sub) than take you seriously and listen to what you have to say.

We don't need your sympathy. Begone.

Ah nice one. I feel the burn.

Absolutely, they can never refute our facts and studies.

Could you link to some of those facts and studies please?

https://archive.li/QNCbf (personality=looks)

https://archive.fo/489UV (80/20 rule)

Okay, in all honesty TL;DR but I read enough to tell some of what you were most likely cherry picking and what you just flat out ignored

I can't explain the contrast beetween the desire for Chad dick and rejection for Incel gentlemen.

I love how everyone voicing an opinion opposing OP gets downvoted. It’s this painful close minded-ness and ideology that you are “owed” something by women that is preventing you from developing a healthy relationship. I’m sure women aren’t going out of their way to lie to you, you’re probably so persistent and creepy that the feel there’s no other option. Sooo enjoy being a lonely fedora wearing caveman.

it would be very comfortable for you normies if we just stayed at our caves.

vroom vroom

Well then I wouldn’t have to be such a lying whore

Fedoras are neckbeards. You are confusing your hated virgin groups.

My apologies lol

OP makes no sense at all and is just salty about life. Understandable, sure. But if he's not willing to change it, he's just a fool insulting others.

First of all, why would women even visit this sub in the first place? Pretty much nothing happens here but whining and hating on women.
Second, are you really not seeing that you are only talking about a small minority of women? Most men and women are actually pretty fucking friendly and empathetic. If a woman makes fun of you because you're ugly and she only wants "chad's" dick, then why not let him have that piece of scum? Find someone that is friendlier and stop trying to date A+ looking women because they will never be interested in you unless you have some serious charms. This applies to men as well. A+ men never date ugly women.
I'm not here to tell you looks don't matter, because they definitely do. But you have to work around it if you're not in the "good looking" category.

Hell, a week ago I didn't even know what "incels" were. Someone explained it to me so I subbed here to see what all the hate was about. Now I can see that you are creating your own misery, blaming it on everyone and then whining endlessly about it.

The "go to the gym and work out" advice is bullshit so I'm not going in that direction, but ugliness isn't an excuse and is something you can fix or work around. Hell, I've been an ugly, socially awkward gamer geek my entire life and it hasn't stopped me from getting dates, relationships and FWB.
I have a large bald spot on the back of my head from birth, psoriasis on my arms and legs, skinny, pale and wearing glasses and I still manage to do things just fine. What's your excuse?

Sure you have buddy keep telling yourself that

Why don't you? I'm not a fool. I'll never upload a single photo of me ever, I'm far too self-conscious for that and I would never go that low to prove a point on a fucking webforum.

good to see you literally admit that all "a+ looking women" (healthy weighted/ non deformed) will never be interested in us and only wants chads dik

You sound like you think you deserve a chance with those women as well. You don't. That's life.
Nothing wrong with it.

Except they're theories, if they were true they would be facts.

Woman here. 20, graduating college in 6 days, working towards a master's degree soon.

Looks matter. I will admit that wholeheartedly. If you're attractive (and remember, that's a relative term), there's a higher chance that we'll accept your initial advances. Here are the five things you're missing:

1. If you approach me sexually, I don't care about your appearance. It's an automatic no. If you approach me as a potential friend, there's an excellent chance I'll open up to you. As long as I'm not studying or listening to music, I'm more than happy to chat about a book I'm reading, my dog, my classes, or just the weather. As long as you're respectful, most women (where I've lived, at the very least) are open to talking.

2. Sexiness is relative. One of my friends likes muscles, stubble, and strong jawlines; another likes thin guys with big smiles; I personally like guys with a little extra weight, kind of like the dad bod. As long as you use the right approach, there's a very good chance that someone in the world will find you physically attractive.

3. Physical attractiveness can be overridden by personality. My father has terrible acne scars and my mother didn't find him attractive at all. She was absolutely stunning when they met and wasn't too interested, but he was so kind and funny that she stopped seeing those scars and fell in love. They got together when I was 6 and married when I was 7 with no affairs in those following years (and trust me, there would have been a divorce by now if there had been any affairs).

4. There's a difference between "one night stand material" and "husband material." The actor who plays Aquaman? Damn. I wouldn't turn him down if I had that opportunity. That being said, I'm not really interested in living with someone who looks like that. I want a guy I can cuddle with before bed, someone who would be more focused on us than working out and eating a strict diet. It works for some people, but me? The person I eventually want in my life can't be like that.

5. Sometimes we're just not looking for a boyfriend. Take my situation: I believe that I will only attract the kind of person I want if I work to become the same. I'm aiming for an educated and successful person, so I'm avoiding relationships until I'm educated and successful as well. It's not as if I'm not interested in a few of my friends, I'm just not willing to start a relationship unless I'm going to put 110% into it. Other women have their reasons, but it has nothing to do with you, your looks, or even how you approach them in instances like these.

I know this is probably just going to get buried, but trust me, it's not JUST because of looks. With confidence and respect, there's a good chance you'll at least find someone you can confide in. Just because you haven't found someone yet doesn't mean you won't in the future.

When women come here and disagree with your core arguments, you either call them liars, accuse them of focusing on exceptions rather than the rule, or tell them they just don't understand what you're saying. Or you just call them names and threaten them.

When women come here and don't bother debating your core arguments, and instead try to give you advice, you say none of their advice could ever possibly work because you're doomed and there's nothing you can do to change your fate, or you just call them names and threaten them.

What in the name of God do you guys want?

True

Truth hurts lol. Lucky bitches...

I don't hate women at all. I simply point out that women aren't perfect angels just by virtue of being female, and that they are shallow (like all human beings), and that they do care about looks as one of the most important factors in dating and choosing a mate. Everyone else decides that you're sexist or a misogynist or you hate women, just because I point these things out. I think the problem is too many people come in here thinking we hate women, insult us for that, and then no real discussion happens because side A opens by calling us rapists and woman haters, so side B isn't going to be respectful if that's how it's going to be.

So how am I living my life blindly? I'm simply pointing out that women are only truly attracted to a small group of men, and if you aren't in that small group, dating is going to be hell for you until you're in your 30's and the ball gets in your court during the dating game.

Do you understand how unreasonable this entire post is? I have never cheated. None of my friends has ever cheated. In fact, I've been loyal to one man my entire teenage and adult life.

Look, not every woman is a liar. Not every woman cheats. It's unreasonable to assume so based on the fact that some women do. What this post is is an inaccurate sweeping generalization.

You clearly don't

Lmao...What a load of horse-shit

You probably read two books in your entire pathetic life and now all of a sudden you know things and feel the need to tell people about life and shit.

GTFO

Times have changed a lot thought between the 60s (or whenever your parents met) and now the age of social media and hypergamy. I don't think all women are horrible but most I have met in my life have been very shallow.

Most guys who post on this sub are 18-22. To them, any woman over 25 is "old" and "used up".

Money, talent

You are proving to us foids are Gold diggers lmao

And as I said, there's nothing misogynistic about it. You can disagree with the thought but it's not misogynistic. Putting yourself out there is a brave and frankly very humiliating task. So if a girl rejects you, she's basically rejecting your whole worth. It's dehumanising.

Now misogynistic stuff might be where I call women whores for no reason or talk about how they should be put on leash or that they all belong in the kitchen. Find me a single comment in that vein.

OkCupid (which is what's usually cited) actually deleted their own statistical analysis artical a couple days ago due to the Toronto attack. I guess they wanted to cover it up.

Anyway, I found a Reddit post talking about it (just ignore the comments).

You can also search "okcupid 80%". The article has been deleted like I said, I was hoping to find an archived version of it but I'm on my phone and don't care enough to use my google-fu right now.

Lastly, it's just anecdotally obvious. Every time I've heard/seen a girl talk about what an average man looks like, the guy is usually quite attractive. But, that's just anecdotal, of course.

I’m trying to explain how that attitude is misogynistic and you don’t want to see it. Which is fine. But don’t go around with shitty attitudes about women and then wonder why they won’t sleep with you