who cares

admit to their bullshit

Kek, good luck. You'll need it.

Women = have no muscles = have to manipulate everyone with lies

Plenty of women have muscles. Have you seen female body builders? Or female athletes? Yea... they have muscles.

don't be an autist

Whatever you say kid

unironically using this as an argument

being this retarded

There are people that are deformed that will have a harder time getting someone to give them a chance. But many times it's social anxiety and a lack of confidence.

Where's the line between deformed and not deformed though, what if you don't have any technically medically recognized deformity but your face is off putting enough where not a single person will even acknowledge you as an equal and people gawk and make remarks saying how ugly you are no matter where you go?

Shut the fuck you up worthless scum

Could you stop vulgarizing highly complex issues with your facile generalizations? You really think the line is actual deformity? You have that high of an opinion of humanity?

Your posts almost always scream naivete, moreso than even the most reclusive of incels. These posts of yours, contrary to whatever purpose you think they serve, are inimical to any kind of thoughtful discussion.

Not a foid, but a norman, and a lot of this rings true.

all obvious, but I'm not a womanoid

Foids will kill us

They won't

I blocked just about every normie, let me know if any of them admit to this

Didn't expect much

How do block them

report them, and then the option for blocking them comes up

I will admit that:

Virgin shaming is something that some women do and it sucks. There are those of us who try to call them out on it. It's usually an angry reaction to the entire human history of slut shaming, but that doesn't make it ok and we need to change this in society.

People who have non-standard looks will have a harder time finding a partner, but it's not impossible. I talked to someone on here who claimed to be 5'1" with a cone-shaped head and a lazy eye. So yeah, that guy's gonna have a lot of trouble getting laid. A lot of the pics of "incels" you post are certainly not unfuckable, though.

We do judge people visually during first impressions--everyone does. So as far as someone with some sort of physical disability yeah in most cases that's going to factor into it, unfortunately. I'm going to tie this to the "creep" one though and say that everyone I've thought of as a "creep" generally held themselves strangely and had no sense of boundaries. I never considered someone a creep based on physical attractiveness alone.

Women don't need a man for most things and yes that makes us less dependent on them--but, I mean, isn't that good? We're humans and we should be able to be self-sufficient?

No one can be everything someone else wants. I think both people in partnered relationships try to find compromises in behaviors in the other. So in a way your statement about "never being happy with their base" person is true, but it's not the whole story.

Romantic relationships will not be very successful if you're not sexually attracted to your partner. This is absolutely true. Many women I know including myself find sexual attraction to be much more of a mental thing, but it's true that some people have pheromones that just get you going.

Alright go ahead an comb through my posts and tear me apart if you want. But you asked so I'm giving you as genuine of an answer as I can, from my perspective.

everyone I've thought of as a "creep" generally held themselves strangely

Sooo, ableism against people with assburgers and autism is alive and well, then?

Lol I mean like standing too close to me or exhibiting otherwise inappropriate physical behavior towards me.

But I'm glad you found one thing in what I said that with enough stretching could be picked apart! Congrats.

It's usually an angry reaction to the entire human history of slut shaming

Citation needed.

We were literally burned at the stake for having sex outside of the social norms of monogamous church-approved marriage?

So? How does that tie slut shaming to virgin shaming?

I'll be straightforward - I think the association is false. I thin slut shaming has nothing to do with virgin shaming. Both are vile, and women engage in virgin shaming not because they're reacting to slut shaming, but simply because they can and enjoy shaming virgins.

Ah I follow. I thought you were denying the history of slut shaming.

You don't see how women, who have all their lives have internalized the idea that having sex, especially with multiple partners, decreases your value and reduces your respectability wouldn't want to turn that around? That because of the idea that men "lose" their virginity while women "give it away," they wouldn't want to take that concept and apply it to the gender that's "enforcing" the perceived hurt? I've always thought of it like a "you're going to put so much value on my purity while you don't face the same scrutiny, so I'll hit you where it hurts and shame you in the equivalent way for your gender" type of thing.

It's still wrong and it all sucks. But I think there's absolutely a link between heteronormative men accusing women of being "whores" and heteronormative women accusing men of being "virgins."

That because of the idea that men "lose" their virginity while women "give it away," they wouldn't want to take that concept and apply it to the gender that's "enforcing" the perceived hurt?

Yes, that's the part I don't see. I'd ask you to demonstrate the existence of that connection, and its prevalence, but we both know you can't. You're just trying to excuse a vile and evil behavior.

I think

Who the fuck cares what you "think"? You're just some name on the internet. Either back your opinions up or keep them to yourself.

But really we're all just names on the internet with opinions? Any time I can remember seeing women use "virgin" as an insult it was to deflect or defend against the idea that they were "whores." Both accusations are vile, and we continue doing it because we're socialized to. Incels often base their whole ideology on the perception that women are sluts, "stacy" and "landwhales" alike. Your anecdotal evidence is no better than mine--the best we can do is try to talk to each other as people and try to realize how similar we are: often derided and hurt, feeling misunderstood, and wanting to feel accepted. Perpetuating the hurt is bad for all of us.

Any time I can remember

That just reveals that you have a bias, which means you're a subhuman piece of shit and aren't even worth talking to. Here's hoping you'll get cancer soon and die before you get the chance to hurt anyone with your bigotry. Kindy fuck off now.

Why are you so bitter when I'm just trying to answer your questions?

Honestly? Because I went to a bar today and they had this tequila bottle and I thought it'd be nice to have some, and it turned out be pretty shitty.

Well we have that in common. Tequila doesn't work well for me either. I turn into a crying mess. Hope your day gets better!

Do you not think it perhaps has more to do with traditional ideas of masculinity being "a man who can attract a lot of women"?

I think that's definitely the intent behind the insult, to me it's the inverse of slut shaming where you are a "failed" woman if you sleep around because you're too easy, you've decreased your value, and you won't attract a "good" man as a long term partner. They come from the same social standard: that for some reason we need to fit the role of what's acceptable for our gender. They hurt all of us and I think it needs to stop from both sides. The more men call us whores to hurt us the more we call them virgins to hurt them and the cycle continues unless we become better people and break the idea that the amount of sexual experience you have diminishes your value as either a man (not having "enough") or a woman (having "too much.")

My wife just laughed when I showed her this and she says you probably just whine and bitch too much, and that's all it is.

Well in see you whining and bitching soon in r/deadbedrooms or r/divorcerape

lmaaaoooo I've been married for 6 years since age 22, and we still fuck like rabbits. 10+ times a month at least. We have 3 kids with a 4th on the way. I'll admit though, sometimes it is hard to get a good fuck session in when you have that many kids growing up in your house, but I have a loving and very wealthy couple of parents that LOVE being with my kids, so we always find a way for the kids to visit gma and gpa, and we do our thing.

Stay salty.

just be a richcel bro

Nice larp

Behold: The kissless, hugless, handholdless virgin in its natural habitat. When confronted with facts and statements it doesn't like, it's quick to run out screaming "F-FAKER! N-NO WAY A SUCCESSFUL PERSON IS ON THE INTERNET!"

just keep copin'

Mate, I am not a virgin, you kind of missed that. Np though.

Yeah dude I'm sure she just goes to another school lmao

larping this hard

kek

Just lol at asking fro a bitches opinion on dating. They live life on ez street these days ofc its funny to them.

Anyway tell that bitch i said hi.

Yeah. Some people are genetically inferior to others, and they have less of a chance to reproduce. It is just natural selection doing its job, which it already can't do since we stay alive with bad genetic related ailments and those reproduce too. It aint a secret.

1. No

2. Some people are smarter. Some people are prettier. Some smart people are ugly. Some pretty people are dumb. Too many variables. Hard to say what's superior or inferior.

3. I would rate most of my guy friends who have girlfriends 5/10. Even this Asian video game nerd I know has a pretty girlfriend.

4. It's always been like this since the dawn of humanity. Successful men are attractive for good evolutionary reasons because they could provide for the offspring.

5. No one has an equal chance at anything. Period.

6. True. Men are falling behind in many things and this is a big social problem. Make yourself more marketable by learning in-demand skills. Learning a new skill is easier than ever.

7. In a healthy relationship you should always push your partner to become better, and you yourself should become better for your partner.

8. Why would you be in a relationship to begin with if you are not attracted to your partner?

9. Untrue.

Hope this helps.

1. Well yes. Male-male competition and female choice. This sexual dynamic really hasn't changed. How it manifests itself might have. Women are more cautious about mating because they contribute more biological resources to child rearing. They are not using it as a weapon against men. They select who they mate with for self preservation.

2. This is about facial attractiveness. It's one variable. A friend of mine is dating a facially attractive guy and the relationship is going to shit coz he's bad at life in general.

3. He is definitely not an 8. He's a 5 if I'm being generous. They are on the 7th year of their relationship.

4. No. You can be good looking. But if you are clingy and coming on too strong I would nope out of there.

1. Yes. Some people are born with no legs. Some people are born with abnormalities. I can never be an astronaut. We all have our shortcomings. My aunt is in her 50's and I'd say she is attractive. She never married. Men choose what women they want to approach. Women choose whether they want to accept that advance. My question is: Why do you think you are excluded?

2. Women have ALWAYS been attracted to men who are good looking. Men have ALWAYS been attracted to women who are beautiful. Point is, just because you are good looking it doesn't mean you could provide for your partner.Would you go for a toxic relationship just so you could be with a good looking partner?

3. If the guy is 20/10 maybe. That's never happened though so I can't really say. The guy may give a very good first impression if he is very attractive but if that's all he's got then no relationship is happening.

Incels have some valid points. I give you that. Evolution plays a huge part for sure but I feel a lot of incels are missing a big chunk of the picture. Nature AND nurture both play important roles in your life. The world is cruel and unfair. Look at Cristiano Ronaldo. Most women in the world would find him attractive. At the end of the day, most men who are married and happy are nowhere near as attractive as Ronaldo.

Life doesn't always work out like they do in movies and books. But I feel incels just take it completely to the other extreme. Life doesn't have to be as bleak as you guys make it out to be.

Why are you trying to get women to agree with you? What's the point of that? If a women came and agreed to all your points, would you completely satisfied and go on with your life?

Well yes. Male-male competition and female choice. This sexual dynamic really hasn't changed. How it manifests itself might have. Women are more cautious about mating because they contribute more biological resources to child rearing. They are not using it as a weapon against men. They select who they mate with for self preservation.

You literally just agreed with the OP but claimed it was false.

Yes in that women choose who they mate with. No in that they use it as a weapon.

You can use it as a weapon without intent too.

And what makes you think it's a weapon?

It is used to inflict harm on another person, so yes, it’s a weapon.

By that logic anything could be used as a weapon against anyone. Truth is, most people don't care about others. People do things to make themselves happy. If I refuse to let a classmate copy my homework, am I using that as a weapon against him?

In this philosophical sense, yes. You are using your right to hurt him in that manner. Everything can be used as a weapon, words included. However, I never said that it would be morally wrong to do that for women. Some rights override the notion that no one should be hurt. For example the right of free speech overrides the desire of not wanting to be offended. Thus hate speech laws should be abolished IMO. Likewise a woman’s right to say who gets to fuck her overrides any incel’s hurt feelings.

What I take issue with is denying the vast inequality of the sexual marketplace in favor of women. I believe that if more men knew about it, women would lose some of their power. Of course that’s what they don’t want. But that would be good for every single man on Earth.

"Admit that a relationship wouldn't be very successful if you weren't sexually attracted to your partner"

I agree with this one, given that neither are asexual/waiting for marriage or whatever. But at the same time, appearance isn't the only thing that can attract you to someone, since sex isn't just looking at your partner lmao. It depends on the woman. Some need a strong emotional connection to someone before sleeping with them, some women don't care about that.

Bit of a tangent, but have you ever looked at a male celebrity and wonder why so many women find him physically attractive? I think a lot of guys on this sub have this ideal male image in their heads when women's tastes can actually be pretty niche.

"Admit that not everyone has an equal chance at "love" compared to those of a higher social status either through beauty/wealth/popularity"

You're right in some sense, but it's not really a question of love. Typically attractive people will have more chances at dating, but love is a whole other level. I mean, if someone dates a lot, it kinda shows most of their relationships are unsuccessful.

It depends on the woman. Some need a strong emotional connection to someone CHAD before sleeping with them CHAD, some women don't care about that.

FTFY

but have you ever looked at a male celebrity and wonder why so many women find him physically attractive? I think a lot of guys on this sub have this ideal male image in their heads when women's tastes can actually be pretty niche.

How is liking a celebrity in any way niche? Do you even know what that word means?

Typically attractive people will have more chances at dating, but love is a whole other level.

Are you retarded? Attractive people have more chances at dating which is a prerequisite for finding love. If you can't get dates how the hell are you going to find love?

JFL at normshit logic.

I never said liking a celebrity, I was talking about physical appearance specifically and it's an easy example to give.

No, I'm not retarded. Not dating someone doesn't mean you miss out on someone loving you. If a girl doesn't want to date you, there's obviously no chance of her falling in love with you. The only thing you're missing out on is a load of failed attempts at being in a relationship.

I never said liking a celebrity

Then why did you mention exactly that?

I was talking about physical appearance specifically and it's an easy example to give.

What are you even trying to say?

Not dating someone doesn't mean you miss out on someone loving you.

How are you supposed to find a person to love you if you cannot get a date then?

Are you sure you are not retarded? You really come off as such.

Yet it's you who needs things spelling out multiple times.

Perhaps if you had made a coherent and logical statement I would not need to ask you what you are trying to say.

Pretty sure anyone else would understand what I'm saying, since you're disregarding my points, rather than asking me to explain.

since you're disregarding my points, rather than asking me to explain.

lol How? I literally asked you questions like, "Then why did you mention exactly that?" and How are you supposed to find a person to love you if you cannot get a date then?"

I have asked you multiple questions and you have chosen to not answer them.

Because I already said in my last reply I used it as an example. Like, idk how many times I'm supposed to repeat myself with different wording for you.

Used it as an example FOR WHAT? Dear fucking god how can you have such low reading comprehension skills?

These were your exact words:

but have you ever looked at a male celebrity and wonder why so many women find him physically attractive? I think a lot of guys on this sub have this ideal male image in their heads when women's tastes can actually be pretty niche.

This implies that somehow celebrities are a niche taste which is why my response was:

How is liking a celebrity in any way niche? Do you even know what that word means?

To which you responded:

I never said liking a celebrity, I was talking about physical appearance specifically and it's an easy example to give.

Nowhere in your statement did you say WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN EXAMPLE OF. So I responded with:

Then why did you mention exactly that?

and

What are you even trying to say?

Which you completely did not respond to with your reply of:

Yet it's you who needs things spelling out multiple times.

To this nonanswer I responded with:

Perhaps if you had made a coherent and logical statement I would not need to ask you what you are trying to say.

Which you replied to with a response that completely ignored my previous posts in which I asked you 3 questions, two of which you have yet to give any response to AT ALL.

Pretty sure anyone else would understand what I'm saying, since you're disregarding my points, rather than asking me to explain.

You have yet to state in any way what you were trying to give an example of. You also have accused me of not asking you questions when they are literally right there for you to see, and you have ignored all but one of them and have given no answer to that one question. Answer the questions or fuck off and be retarded somewhere else.

God damn normies.

I didn't generalize celebrities as a whole though

I used the physical appearance of some male celebrities as an example of women thinking guys outside of the typical 'chad' appearance are attractive since not every female has the same taste and a whole lot of guys would be surprised about whats considered attractive to different women.

I posted my reply to your other post before seeing this one so I shall respond to this one.

Thank you for finally answering one of my questions.

I used the physical appearance of some male celebrities as an example of women thinking guys outside of the typical 'chad' appearance are attractive

You cannot use celebrities as an example of this since 1) they are rich and famous and thus activate the natural gold digging/status digging instincts of females and 2) most attractive celebrities do not look very different from each other.

not every female has the same taste and a whole lot of guys would be surprised about whats considered attractive to different women

The overwhelming majority do find the same types of features attractive. Height being the most well documented one.

Do you intend to answer any of my other questions? Especially since you made the horrendous accusation of me not asking you questions literally just a few replies after I had asked you multiple questions.

• Admit that women control this generations sexual market and access to sex/loss of virginity and that virgin shaming is something they use as a weapon against unsuccesful men

Sex isn't a commodity, but yes. Virgin shaming is a thing and its not okay.

• Admit that some people were born genetically inferior to others either through intelligence/beauty/frame/health and that these people have less potential or a much harder time finding a woman to "love" them

Nobody is born inferior to another person, but some people are born ugly or not conventionally attractive which does impact dating and romance. The world we live in is dictated by what the masses believe and its fucked.

• Admit that some people can change themselves and their looks only so much before they have to resort to plastic surgery to fit a majority standard of someone who is desirable/dateable, and that such things as "lookism" only exists because women value looks more so than other features at the start of a relationship

Lookism exists on both ends. Women are not your enemy.

• Admit that women are hypergamous in nature and that it has only gotten significantly worse through things like tinder/social media

Women can be hypergamous. Men can be too. It has not gotten better or worse. It just is. Assholes who want to climb the social ladder will do so.

• Admit that not everyone has an equal chance at "love" compared to those of a higher social status either through beauty/wealth/popularity

Agreed. Finding romance and love isn't in the cards for everyone.

• Admit that women don't need a man for most things anymore and that makes men much more disposable

Another way to word this would be "women have agency now and have the opportunity to choose someone they actually want to be with, opposed to settling for the first man with a job for survival."

• Admit that women are never happy with their base man and that they try to shape them according to their expectations

That's idiotic.

• Admit that a relationship wouldn't be very successful if you weren't sexually attracted to your partner

No shit? For sexual people attraction is very important.

• Admit that most of the time a "creep" is someone you find physically unattractive

No. Most of the time a creep is someone who can't pick up on social cues.

 

These are just commonly accepted facts amongst most redpilled/blackpilled men. Can a woman dispute any of this?

None of you experience the world as a woman.

I have some pretty serious problems with how you worded that second to last point.

That sucks.

Sending an unsolicited dick pic isn't picking up on social cues. Not taking no for an answer isn't picking up on social cues. Sending an anime inspired message isn't picking up on social cues.

I get it. I get that what i said could be offensive to people that are on the spectrum. But you asked for honesty and there it is. Being oblivious to whats socially appropriate is a massive red flag for most people.

My point is that there's a difference between being harmlessly socially awkward, and maliciously socially ignorant. Missing out on social cues doesn't make you a creep. Being malicious makes you a creep.

That's true. But half the time when women experience creepiness from dudes I'm not convinced those men are aware that how they're acting is malicious. Not all social inadequacy is harmful, i agree with that. I wasn't trying to imply that it was.

But the simple fact is social ineptitude is often seen as creepy. That's the answer. Its not about ugly. Its about picking up on cues.

You might not have been trying to imply it, but that's what you did anyway. And you're still doing it. So fuck you.

A question was asked. An answer was given. I personally don't believe that being socially unaware is creepy. I work with Autistic people for a living and i am pretty fucking socially awkward myself.

But when people say someone is creepy its not because they're ugly, usually. Its because they say weird shit. I've been called creepy myself.

You're female, aren't you?

Go read the OP and figure it out for yourself.

That explains a lot.

I am not an IT woman. Just to be clear. That sub is a bullying sub. But i do have some responses. Hard to go into detail as i am on mobile.

Admit that women control this generations sexual market and access to sex/loss of virginity

The way that this is worded makes it seems like women are conspiring to decide which men are worthy of losing their virginity. I dont think thats what you meant. I would like more details on where this idea comes from.

and that virgin shaming is something they use as a weapon against unsuccesful men

Yeah, its a thing.. One of many types of bullying. I dont condone it.

Admit that some people were born genetically inferior to others either through intelligence/beauty/frame/health and that these people have less potential or a much harder time finding a woman to "love" them

Yes. Absolutely. Dating can be fuckin brutal.

Admit that some people can change themselves and their looks only so much before they have to resort to plastic surgery to fit a majority standard of someone who is desirable/dateable, and that such things as "lookism" only exists because women value looks more so than other features at the start of a relationship

Very hard to touch on every point here, so i summarize

Looks and charisma are the only thing you have to go by when you initially meet someone. So for the dating game, looks are a huge part of getting your foot in the door. (Personal note: For that reason, I never actually tried dating. Looks play a part in attraction, but, its weird trying to determine relationship compatibility from looks alone. I would rather be friends first, so i know whats on the inside.

Admit that women are hypergamous in nature and that it has only gotten significantly worse through things like tinder/social media

Huge blanket statement. Individuals may be hypergamous from experience/upbringing (nurture). I do not believe that it is fair to say any large group is hypergamous in nature. How else would we reproduce? Women need men as much as men need women. Pockets of sexually entitled people exist in this society, and tinder is one of those places where it is most prevalent.

Admit that not everyone has an equal chance at "love" compared to those of a higher social status either through beauty/wealth/popularity

This is true. Then again, nobody is really on equal footing in regards to anything. Such is life.

Admit that women don't need a man for most things anymore and that makes men much more disposable

We live in a time now where women are not respected for staying at home, letting the man work. Women were the disposable sex, now both genders are equally disposable.

Still. I am a believer that companionship is a basic human desire. Women need men for love, and men need women for love. It is my hope to see people choose their companions and to be good to them.

Admit that women are never happy with their base man and that they try to shape them according to their expectations

Never say never. It is true that many people do this. It is not how one builds a foundation for a good relationship.

Admit that a relationship wouldn't be very successful if you weren't sexually attracted to your partner

Sexual compatibility is extremely important in a relationship. But each person values sex differently.

Admit that most of the time a "creep" is someone you find physically unattractive

Creep can mean a lot of things.

I have met many women that are repulsed by an innocent approach of unattractive males. They are ugly on the inside. I have met many women that do not feel this way. On the other hand, I have seen many men talk in disgust about a females appearance, but i also know that there are men who do not do this. It comes down to a persons culture and morals.

(I am sorry if some of what i am saying contradicts my precious statements, i am just typing my ideas as they come up)

I am not sure who told you that "any man has a shot with me", but I believe that they were being dishonest with you, and they were being dishonest with themselves. They were likely virtue signaling (for lack of a better term). Good intentions, not a great outcome.

Of course individuals are picky when choosing a partner for a relationship, it is an investment (ideally a lifelong investment, as many of us have been taught to desire.)

In regards to gender roles: In society, men have been taught to play the role of the pursuir. Traditionally, women are the ones who are required to ultimately make the decision on whether to allow the pursuit to continue. So i suppose that in this context, women are the "gatekeepers" more often. There are so many varying reasons as to why female selectivity is so prevalent. I can add more on that if youre interested, and i would like to hear your views on that as well.

Now, hypergamy is a whole different beast to discuss. I don't necessarily disagree with you. It's just too broad of a discussion to be condensed in such a small paragraph. It all starts with how each of us decide to define hypergamy. We likely have different ideas of what this concept means. Once we found a common ground on the definition, then we would probably discuss the scope at which it exists.

I will not deny the existence of hypergamy but I may argue the scope at which it exists.

Admit that women control this generations sexual market and access to sex/loss of virginity and that virgin shaming is something they use as a weapon against unsuccesful men

I don't agree. Exercising their right to say "no" does not mean they control anything. Men also have the right to say "no" which women must respect. Plenty of men I've been interested in have turned me down. I don't frame that as them "controlling" the sexual market, just being human beings who are allowed to make personal choices.

And one could argue that among modern teenagers (who are just learning how to relate to each other sexually and possibly learning patterns that will follow them through their lives), boys actually have control because they often pressure, cajole, and shame their female peers into sexual acts. (This book was good for reading about the kind of sexual landscape young girls face)

I don't think virgin shaming is right, and I don't agree with anyone who uses someone else’s sex life as an insult. But many women who haven't had sex feel this shame, too.

Admit that some people were born genetically inferior to others either through intelligence/beauty/frame/health and that these people have less potential or a much harder time finding a woman to "love" them

Yeah, no one is born equal. Many people will always be more attractive, more intelligent, more talented, healthier, or luckier than you. Other people will have worse circumstances. Maybe someone without some advantages will have fewer people who want to date them, but if you would open your eyes and look around you in the world, you would see that TONS OF unattractive people find love.

I have conventionally “unattractive” friends, male and female, who are always in relationships. I have conventionally attractive friends who are constantly unlucky in love, and it has more to do with their personality and/or the kinds of women they pursue.

Admit that some people can change themselves and their looks only so much before they have to resort to plastic surgery to fit a majority standard of someone who is desirable/dateable, and that such things as "lookism" only exists because women value looks more so than other features at the start of a relationship

Yeah, again, everyone is born different and some people are more conventionally attractive than others. That's life; that's how it's always worked. But again, if you look around, MANY, MANY ugly people date and find love.

But how can you say that women in particular value looks more than other qualities? If you are seeing someone for the first time and deciding if you're attracted to them, yes of course you're basing that on looks. You have no other information to go on. Do you think men don’t do this?

In my experience, women are much more likely to change their opinion on how attractive someone is after getting to know them. There have been studies that show that women's brains are turned on by a much wider range of things than men's brains. As men age they continue to be attracted to women in their 20s, whereas women seek men close to their own age at every stage of life.

Women's taste is much more varied and malleable than incels want to admit. I feel like the incel community has to ignore almost all of real life relationships to justify this belief that women are only attracted to a small subset of evolutionarily perfect men.

Admit that women are hypergamous in nature and that it has only gotten significantly worse through things like tinder/social media

Absolutely no. I don't believe this at all and I don't see any evidence for it. Of course it happens in the world because everything does. But 99.99% of women in western society marry for love. Any lingering use of marriage for social climbing is leftover from a patriarchal society where it was the only way women could improve their station.

Admit that not everyone has an equal chance at "love" compared to those of a higher social status either through beauty/wealth/popularity

Yeah of course everyone doesn't have an equally easy time of attracting sexual partners. That's some basic "life isn't fair" stuff. But "love" is different. I think love is hard to find for anyone, and if you're in a high social status I think it might actually be harder.

Admit that women don't need a man for most things anymore and that makes men much more disposable

We're getting (slowly) to a point where women will need men for exactly the same reasons men need women. Companionship and partnership and stuff like that. We're all humans and in an equal society we need roughly the same things from each other. Does that make us all disposable? I don't really think so, but I guess you could look at it that way.

Admit that women are never happy with their base man and that they try to shape them according to their expectations

I think this sounds like a trope from movies. Partners have expectations of each other and they should. But beyond that I don't see how this is super widespread.

Admit that a relationship wouldn't be very successful if you weren't sexually attracted to your partner

Of course not. So women shouldn't be obligated to sleep with men they're not attracted to. And vice versa.

But also sexual attraction is very individual and very malleable. Some people are attracted to their partner off the bat, some get to know them first and then start to find them more attractive. Some find their partner very attractive even though other people around them may not agree.

But why is that being gendered? Do you think men don’t care what their female partners look like? Do you think men don’t pursue women based on attractiveness? Why is this being framed by incel communities as some special discrimination that only women commit?

Admit that most of the time a "creep" is someone you find physically unattractive

Absolutely untrue. A creep is someone who doesn't respect boundaries. Men who discount women's experiences are always saying this. Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Distilled blue pill extract, but you do seem to genuinely belive it. You're probably young and idealistic. Allow life to take its toll

haha ok. I'm 29 and have had multiple long-term relationships and periods of singledom/dating in my life.

Your answers to the claims seem remarkably niiave and idealistic for someone who's 29. I have a hard time believing you can honestly examine your desires and choices in men along with those of other women and then type such standard hallmark card bullshit with a straight face. Your life must have been scripted by a family channel drama production staff

Wow based on a few comments on reddit you really know a lot about me!

Most stuff I read from this subreddit and others like it are straight-up ripped off from boring media stereotypes tinted by persecution complexes, but I guess I'm the one whose views are scripted...

When you speak, prepare to be judged based on what you say. Makes sense. What you said was trite, so I'm assuming you are trite

Yeah, I got that? And I responded by pointing out how your judgements were hypocritical... Do we need to go through it again?

You conveniently missed the links to studies, statistics and research articles on facial characteristics, height and other physical traits in relation to sexual selection that permeate this sub. It's not arbitrary cynicism. It's not airy opinion void of foundation like you. Reality is mean

Well, I do agree that there are characteristics that are inherently attractive. I'm not saying all humans are equally attractive and it's all personal preference. But I'm just arguing that those qualities aren't of all-surpassing importance when selecting a mate. They're also not particular to women who select men. Men also have preferences and act on them when choosing women.

Most people end up with people who are roughly of equal attractiveness to them. How do you explain that? Are all those people (90%+ of humanity) miserable and waiting to trade up at the first possible chance? Are they all using each other?

Cynicism does not necessarily mean depth or truth.

Women get more matches, but that's partially because many dudes go through and match tons of women, then if a woman messages them who they weren't actually interested in, they either ignore her or unmatch. It's just a strategy. As a woman on tinder, you eventually get bored of all the matches because you know plenty of the guys won't actually be interested. But yes, overall women get more matches than men.

(Also, I'll point out that women on dating sites have to learn to be super selective to avoid getting dudes who will randomly send them dick pics or hurl abuse at them. If men behaved better on dating sites on the whole, women would be less cautious about matching.)

Rarely should anyone, attractive or not, walk up to a person on the street and use PUA tactics on them. In fact, you shouldn't use PUA shit anywhere.

You seem to have a view of the world that women stand around and wait to be pursued. You're denying the possibility that two people may be in a club or activity or school or other social group together and mutually become interested in each other. Or start out as friends who transition into dating. Or that a woman might ask out a man. Your view of how the dating world works is simply one huge stereotype. I can't speak to a lot of it because it has nothing in common with my experience or the experiences of anyone I know.

I will say that yes, definitely women have more matches and such on dating sites. But as I described above, it doesn't lead necessarily to connections or love or even dates sometimes. I live in Seattle, where the tech industry has caused an influx of young men who now outnumber young women and have flooded the dating market. And my last stretch of being single, I was in my mid-20s and reasonably attractive. Yet it was still a very lonely experience much of the time and I often had trouble getting dates.

Also… get off Tinder maybe? Stop basing all assumptions about how online dating works on one site? Tinder is BY NATURE very shallow. It’s literally built to work that way. There are lots of other dating sites.

When it comes to sex, women want a man they are attracted to who they also like and get along with. And "attracted to" does not equate to "their ideal hunk of man". You can insist over and over that this isn't true, but it is. Women in real life don't fight each other tooth and nail over a small subset of men. People in real life generally fall in love with and settle down with a partner who is considered roughly as attractive as they are. Matching hypothesis.

I still don't understand why this is continually framed as something that women do to men, and not a mutual thing. In my view, most people are attracted to a minority of highly attractive people. But it's also very flexible, and getting to know someone and liking their personality absolutely raises their attractiveness. This study shows that in mixed-attractiveness couples, they had usually known each other longer before dating.

Matching hypothesis

The matching hypothesis (also known as the matching phenomenon) is derived from the discipline of social psychology and was first proposed by Elaine Hatfield and her colleagues in 1966, which suggests why people become attracted to their partner. It claims that people are more likely to form and succeed in a committed relationship with someone who is equally socially desirable. This is often researched in the form of physical attraction.

Successful couples of differing physical attractiveness may be together due to other matching variables that compensate for the difference in attractiveness.

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men I've been interested in have turned me down

lol no. Quit your bullshit. Women can't be rejected, they'll never know how it truly is.

why come to a thread where someone asked to have a real conversation, just to tell women who respond that they are literally lying? OK.

If you think that women are literally incapable of sharing in such a basic human experience as sexual rejection, then it might speak a little to your inability to connect with women overall.

Because what you said is an impossibility. Rejection is a male thing, not a woman thing. Women simply don't know it. It's not a basic "human" experience, it's a basic man experience.

what fantasy world do you actually live in?

This one, but it's no fantasy.

I have absolutely been rejected. I understand your point - most women can have sex even if the guy doesn't want them or find them attractive, and the same can't be said for men. But rejection is very real for most people, and it always sucks.

You can't be rejected if you don't initiate.

That's simply not true.

What do you mean?

This guy and I started talking on Tinder. We talked every single day, all day for a month and a half before I decided to make the drive to go see him. Spent the night with him and after I got home he just stopped talking to me. I asked him what happened and he said "I like you and all but I'm just not into it." You might not consider that rejection, but I certainly did. That fucking hurt.

It's not rejection.

Lol you have never been rejected. Stop lying. Women don’t get rejected by men. Only women reject men.

jesus christ these cucks are thicker than glycerine, not one tickmark ? . It's war boyos. bring out the fucking bazookas

Do you think men don’t do this? Do you think men don’t care what their female partners look like? Do you think men don’t pursue women based on attractiveness? Why is this being framed by incel communities as some special discrimination that only women commit?

I agree with some of what you said, but let me address the "men do it too" point: Yes, men also care about looks. The reason this isn't often brought up here is because mainstream society already generally acknowledges this. Men are already stereotyped as shallow, desperate, and obsessed with sex and physical attraction. On the other hand, women are portrayed as more mature and morally superior because, unlike those thirsty shallow men, they always care deeply about personality and character. Incels are making the point that women can be just as shallow, or place just as much as importance on looks, as men. Not to say that men don't care about looks.

women can be just as shallow, or place just as much as importance on looks, as men

I wouldn't argue with that. But that seems like such a mild statement to me that I don't know many people who would object to it.

The way you describe this overwhelming black & white societal view to me, where men are painted as slavering and shallow and women as holy and pure, is just not very nuanced. It's not an accurate picture of most people's views; it's an stereotype from some pockets of media. Most real people know that men and women are not like that.

And if all incel communities were saying was 'women can be shallow like men,' there certainly wouldn't be so much backlash. I think you know there's a lot more to it...

The way you describe this overwhelming black & white societal view to me, where men are painted as slavering and shallow and women as holy and pure, is just not very nuanced. It's not an accurate picture of most people's views; it's an stereotype from some pockets of media. Most real people know that men and women are not like that.

Sure, most people don't view it in such a black and white way, where every man is extremely shallow and every woman is extremely virtuous, but many people do believe there's a significant difference between the genders, on average, with regard to this behavior. Let me put it this way, there are sexists who think women are, on average, significantly less intelligent than men. But even these people wouldn't claim every single woman is stupid and every single man is smart, or that the smartest woman is dumber than the dumbest man. They would still recognize variance within populations. But you would still find this view objectionable, right? (Substitute sexism for racism in this analogy, if you like.)

And if all incel communities were saying was 'women can be shallow like men,' there certainly wouldn't be so much backlash. I think you know there's a lot more to it...

I didn't mean that that's all that incels are saying. I worded that poorly, sorry. I just meant to clarify they are not claiming men don't care about looks.

That said, there is also the argument that men have more diverse tastes, or that their appraisals of female attractiveness follow a more generous distribution than female appraisals of male attractiveness. The commonly cited source for this is a blog post by OKCupid analyzing their user data, which found that male ratings of women's looks roughly followed a symmetrical bell curve, while the distribution of women's ratings of men was heavily skewed toward the unattractive end, with 80% of men being rated below the medium rating. Certainly, one study does not definitively reflect the entire world, but it's a starting point for discussion. I'm on mobile right now but would be happy to link and discuss further a little later when I get home.

Maybe someone without some advantages will have fewer people who want to date them, but if you would open your eyes and look around you in the world, you would see that TONS OF unattractive people find love.

This argument is annoying. People here don't care about anecdotal rare exceptions to the rule. They want the rest of the world to validate that they are right about the rule, not keep shitting on them for saying it.

If you look around, you'll find people that won the Powerball. That doesn't mean any of us have a chance of winning the Powerball, that it's realistic to hope for it, or that it's even rational to buy a ticket.

Here's what i will admit to.

Inferior genes will hold you back in the dating life. that's just darwinism right there. People want to procreate and mix good genes with good genes to have healthy smart attractive children that can continue to be at the top of the food chain. Its built into us, both male and female. Men want a fertile attractive woman that can make good babies, women want a man that have good genes and can provide for the babies. Sure people will end up actually procreating with someone that isnt "perfect" but thats becuase humana are capable of higher thought and can ignore their primal instincts to find a life partner that they enjoy for more than just baby making.

There is a lot of fucked up shit in both male and female sexuality so im not going to comment on that. Sex and love isnt fair but neither is life. life sucks then you die, thats pretty much what you get taught at age 7.

Being ugly is a huge hurtle becuase initial attraction is what brings most couples together in the first place. Just like you wouldn't want a "landwhale" unless you were desperate, everyone wants to be with an attractive person. Your eyes dont stop working and your hormones dont shut off just becuase youre ugly.

Personality matters, but so do looks and wealth. Basically, you can pick 2 and do fine in the dating life. If youve only got 1, you better have a lot of it, not just average or above average. If youre as dull as a brick and work at mc Donald's, you better look like that nigga that plays wolverine and fuck like you wrote the karma sutra. If youre but ugly and poor, you better be stand up comedian level funny, witty, and have some interesting as fuck skills to round you out. You know, make her laugh till she cries then seranade her with a song.

If youre ugly and dull, you better be rich enough to make ger forget that enough to have sex with your lame ass.

People dont want to fuck ugly boring broke people. that's the 100% true, but if youre butt ugly you need to develop a decent personality and have a career otherwise, really, what are you worth?

Women don't need men anymore for anything more thab love sex and companionship, thats a good thing though. 100 years ago women married whoever they were told to marry, which was usually a sucessful handsome man that their dad picked out. At least not if youre above average on 1 of the 3, a woman can choose you where her father probably wouldn't have.

Hypergamy has always existed for both genders, but it stems from having a beautiful daughter and wanting her to marry out of the working class so momma and poppa married her off to some closeted gay nobleman. Women have been a commodity for the better part of history, up until the late 20th and current centruy honestly, and thats still only in 1st world countries. If women want to marry up, you can thank the countless generations of men that sold their daughtets for that, and its gotten BETTER becuase women have their own say in their sex and love life now.

Plenty of women are happy with their base man what? if a woman wants yo change a man its becuase shes watched too many rom coms and isnt a fully developed human, and it will blow up in her face quickly. Women that think they can change men are fucking retarded. they exist, but if you think its all women you watch too many rom coms too.

A relationship would suck ass if there was no phsycial attraction, but phsyical attraction can grow/shrink when you get to know a person more.

for your last point? yeah, its pretty well known that rule 1 is be attractive and rule 2 is dont be unattractive. If you're gonna be a creep you better hope to god you can make his dick hard or her panties wet just by staring at you. women are creeps too when theyre ugly too, everyone knows that, this isnt some secret and if people are denying that theyre retarded. The differencr between a hot quirky girl and an annoying social retard is her measurements and facial structure.

am female, think you guys are hilarious, but in like an ironic way. k, done.

Um. This. So this.

Most of what you said is right but

People dont want to fuck ugly boring broke people People

You're pretty delusional if you honestly think it's "People" and not "Women". The only thing a woman has to do in the dating game (besides existing) is look as good as she can make herself. Everything else comes to her after that.

A man has to worry about his personality, his finances, his facial aesthetics, his clothing style and his physical fitness. After he gets all of those things in order he also has to put in 90% of the work when it comes to looking for a partner, unless he is a natural chad.

Women are lazy, have basically zero personality and no passions. Anyone want to bet how many female tinder profiles are some combination of "omg i love to travel/netflix/wine"? This is what happens when an entire sex is handed everything and they don't have to bother to develop as humans. They attach themselves to men, who are the only ones that provide in terms of status, personality and physical attraction.

if you honestly think that all women have no hobbies or passions youre a fucking moron. You also don't seem to realize that women were oppressed for the majority of history and only within the last 3 generations have they been respected (clearly not by everyone) as equals and work in the same fields as men.

Women are not lazy, purly statistically speaking girls and women get better grades across the board in school starting in elementary. This includes STEM classes that are seen as more male dominated.

For nearly 40 years women have outnumbered men in college, they make up more than 57% of college students.

Women also graduate more than men with associates, bachelors, masters, and even doctorates degrees. Statistically, not "oh i think so " or "i see more guys in school," since women started going to college, more women have gotten degrees than men. that is a fact. absolutely not lazy.

Women, while still fighting for their equality, recognition and respect in the workforce, mostly take on the brunt of household chores and childcare becuase of social expectations. Even women in my young generation are expected to not only work a well paying full time job or be in full time education, but they still are expected to do the Lions share of cooking, cleaning, shopping, and childcare. There was a study done last year that stated women of all ages, stages in life, and income do more chores than their male partners. not. lazy.

Women, who are not lazy, also outperform men at work, again, this is a statistic, not a "i hate this gender" anecdote.

women obviously have a fucking personality, saying otherwise is moronic. Look at the head writers or creators for any shows that you watch. Women are just as brilliant as men.

women are hard working, intelligent, creative, and funny just like men are. Women outperform men in a lot, as men outperform women.

Its really really depressing to me that you've never gotten close enough to a woman to realizse women are just men without dicks. Were all people you dummy. The fact that you actually believe men are only with women becuase of sex and attractiveness tells me how far away from a relationship you are. If a loving relationship is the sun then you're pluto. You are sexist and shallow to an extreme level. People do not stay in a relationship just for sex, and unless a woman is an actual 10/10 Angelina Jolie, no man is going to stay with her just becuase of her looks. Youre so far away from knowing what love is that you actually think people tollerate eachother becuase of the shape of their jaw. thats fucking sad dude.

women have no hobbies or passions

But it's true. As I said before, women are never in their lives expected to have a personality (because it's the man's job to impress women with his wonderful personality) or passion (because it's the man's job to impress women with his drive). Women are validated by society from the very second that they are born. You are handed everything to you simply for being a woman. Men have to struggle and fight for every ounce of validation they get from society.

women were oppressed for the majority of history

Good thing we're not living in the majority of history. We're living in the now. If you're a woman in a first world country in 2018 you are not oppressed, period.

Women are not lazy

They absolutely are. Check back to my comments about how men are expected to provide all the actual personality in a relationship.

purly statistically speaking girls and women get better grades across the board in school starting in elementary

Also purely statistically men take harder classes than women at much, much higher rates and men on average have higher IQ than women do.

This includes STEM classes that are seen as more male dominated.

There are barely any women in STEM. Those fields are dominated by men. Have always been and always will be because women are not able to compete with the IQ of men.

For nearly 40 years women have outnumbered men in college, they make up more than 57% of college students.

Women also graduate more than men with associates, bachelors, masters, and even doctorates degrees

This is all because women study much easier subjects than men do. It's a worthless statistic.

Women, while still fighting for their equality, recognition and respect in the workforce

All largely imaginary problems if you live in the first world. The actual oppression of women is occuring in the 3rd world. Your boss calling you a cute nickname at work isn't oppression.

mostly take on the brunt of household chores and childcare becuase of social expectations

Those social expectations have already massively shifted and still are. Men are doing a large amount of household chores and childcare.

but they still are expected to do the Lions share of cooking, cleaning, shopping, and childcare.

Complete fantasy. This is all in your head. Also, the percentage of household chores and childcare not being perfectly divided doesn't mean that you are oppressed.

women obviously have a fucking personality, saying otherwise is moronic. Look at the head writers or creators for any shows that you watch. Women are just as brilliant as men.

Lol no. The creative field is dominated by men. It's men who are making all the best books, movies, music and art. Women make up a tiny percentage.

women are hard working, intelligent, creative, and funny just like men are

Women are less hard working, less intelligent, less creative and less funny than men. Men dominate in all of those fields by a massive margin. This isn't up for debate.

Its really really depressing to me that you've never gotten close enough to a woman to realizse women are just men without dicks.

You're not though. When a man wants to talk about social problems or finance or philosophy or his hobbies, the vast majority of the time he's going to seek out other man for such discussions. When a man wants to engage in activities like sports or music the vast majority of the time he's going to seek out other men. The only thing women have to offer to men is sex and romantic companionship.

It is a fact that women are personality-less and they leech off of men. It is men who have to put in all the work in the dating world. You didn't even attempt to refute this because you know it's true.

Fair warning, this is long and I didn't proof read it very well.

I will freely and openly admit to most of these things, tbh..

With the exception of

women don't need a man for most things

untrue. I need a fucking man, I can't reach things that are high up, open jars, fix mechanical things, or kill spiders on my own.

women are never happy with their base man and try to shape them according to their expectations.

True AF for younger women, this was me to a T. I used to try to "fix" people.. I grew out of it and learned to start accepting people for who they were, or removing myself from their life if I couldn't accept them. I don't think that happens until you get older and grow out of the fantasy, romanticism of your ideal relationship. (stop watching Disney movies and romcoms, realize you are not the princess and he is not the prince, start living in reality)

Things that are completely, 100% true that I have no arguments for:

women control the sexual market.

This has always been true. Women have been withholding sex from their husbands for centuries as a manipulative tool. The reality is that men need sex more physically than women. Most women enjoy sex, true, but it is a commodity that we alone own, we do not have the same urges as men do, and we can hold out much longer than a man can. Men will practically BEG women for sex.. we never, ever have to beg.

some people were born genetically inferior, there isn't much they can do about it, and it is a huge disadvantage because you DO need some semblance of sexual attraction in order to have a fulfilling relationship.

combining a few here but they all tie in together. One thing you can't help is if you were born with a super fucked up face, or worst of all for a man: short. I say it's worst of all because height is and always will be tied to masculinity, and while you can get surgery to fix your face (if you have minor issues) there is literally nothing you can do if you're short. They can probably increase your height by a few inches at the most. Most guys who have actual, REAL height issues, will not benefit from a mere few extra inches. If you're not sexually attracted to your partner, especially as a woman, not only will you NOT want sex as often, you'll have a harder time reaching orgasm. I say this with years of sexual experience under my belt, partners that I couldn't orgasm with, and some that it seemed like all they had to do was touch me and I would cum in minutes. Dick size had nothing to do with it, I've had bad sex with big dicks and incredible sex with smaller ones, what mattered was how into him I was. Sex is how you communicate love, and passion for each other, it's a bonding ritual (this is at a chemical level, sex and sexual touching, kissing, and orgasm release oxytocin in the brain, which produces feelings of love) if you're not having fulfilling, passionate sex, your relationship WILL suffer.

Hypergamy

exists and always will. I think social media has made us more AWARE of it, but I think it stems from the older days when women didn't work or earn their own money, they would hope to "marry rich" because it was their only chance of having a fulfilling lifestyle. Men with money and social status had the top pick of the women. When they couldn't earn their own, they needed a man to do that for them. Looks wise I think everyone genuinely wants to "date up" or "out of their league".

a "creep" is someone you don't find attractive.

yup! a really good looking man could do all kinds of "creepy" shit and get away with it. Classic example, if the guy in 50 Shades was poor and ugly and lived in a trailer, it would be an episode of Criminal Minds, not a romantic, sexual thriller.

I'm going to add one you missed: Looks determine personality. This is the most extreme and most disputed lookism fact. If you were born ugly, you were treated differently by your peers from such a young age, that you probably didn't even realize the effect it had on you until it was too late. Bullies, being outcasted, being the "ugly sibling" might have even affected the way your family treated you. People automatically had lesser expectations for you, you had less friends, were left out of social interaction, were picked on... by the time you "developed" a personality, you were guarded, awkward, submissive, possibly even fearful of social interaction. Nomatter what you did, you got negative feedback, and this lowered your self esteem. As you get older it only gets worse, now you're not only the ugly kid, you're the "weird" one, you don't socially interact well because you have less experience.

My reality, that I have learned in life, is I haven't accomplished shit. I got lucky. I was born with a vagina and a pretty face. I have a shit personality, but I still got positive reinforcement all my life. Truly I'm kind of a weirdo and a cynical asshole but people still love me, they think I'm funny, I have a large social circle, always had a guy by my side from the day I hit puberty, I've never had to be alone, gotten almost every job I've ever interviewed for, got promotions even when I wasn't qualified. Women (and attractive men) deny that lookism is real because they want to believe that they've "worked hard" and their accomplishments are a result of that, but they probably just got lucky too.

TL/DR: Lookism = real.

Thank you for your honesty

gz for knowing how things work

do you actually believe this? this sounds like pandering tbh, i have a hard time believing a normie woman would believe this unironically after the countless of retards who've come here and denied everything. but props to you if it's real I guess

I honestly do. But I also have a decent amount of life experience (I'm not OLD old, but I'm probably older than quite a few of you) and I've l've got a pretty open mind, a lot of empathy, and the ability to look at things a little more objectively than most. This is definitely not something I've always believed, i used to be just as delusional as most people.. believed I was inherently "good", patted myself on the back for being "better than", felt superior, even though like i said I've done nothing to earn it.. as you go through life you start to realize what a piece of shit you are (if you have any self awareness at all, and trust me, most people ARE pieces of shit) and start to wonder why the hell people even like you.. eventually through lots of reflection you connect the right dots. Not that anyone here probably cares much, but for me the real wake up call only happened about a year ago when I parted ways with my life long best friend. Male. You all would have called him my "orbiter". He was in love with me. For 14 years. I was his oneitis. And I was either too stupid, or too delusional.. reality is i think i always knew, and i genuinely cared about him, just not in that way. I couldn't give him what he wanted, and we're no longer friends. He said it would be better for him that way and i believe it and i respectfully stay away. I know you all think that women are cold and callous and uncaring, but we feel that shit too, we hurt when we've hurt someone we care about. I did a lot of personal reflection and did what was ultimately better for him even though I didn't want to. And even that was self indulgent as fuck. I mean i was basically patting myself on the back for being such a big girl and coming to those conclusions myself. What a spoiled bitch! Part of me was still just thinking about myself. Yeah I was fucking dumb then and I still am now. Don't really have any excuses for it. I'd like to be a better person, I'd like to be able to apply it retroactively and undo damage that I've done. You can't though. You can only go forward.

I believe you. good on you, it would be nice if more people were like you

The only other women I've encountered as honest as this were sex workers. Thankyou.

• Admit that women control this generations sexual market and access to sex/loss of virginity and that virgin shaming is something they use as a weapon against unsuccesful men

I don't know much about virgin shaming, but sex requires two people's consent. It is a tendency for men (as a whole) to have more sexual "demand" than women's sexual "supply". It's also a tendency that women's sexual demand is met by men's sexual supply. It's a really complex dynamic and I think you're only focusing on part of it. Do you want women to increase their sexual "demand", so men's "supply" is met? Now she's labeled as a slut. If she does the opposite she's a prude. It seems like no matter what we do we get judged. :/

• Admit that some people were born genetically inferior to others either through intelligence/beauty/frame/health and that these people have less potential or a much harder time finding a woman to "love" them

Unfortunately that is true, such is the nature of life (evolution, strong genes, survival of the fittest, etc). But that really applies towards sex and not love. The hottest guys, Chad's? Yeah almost all of them are assholes because they know their looks can get girls to sleep with them. So when a girl wises up to the fuckboy act and moves on to guys with better personality, a naive girl takes her place. Repeat repeat repeat. At the end of the day most people want to find someone to settle down with and have a life together. This requires so so so much more than physical appearance. While for some it's is a must, but not for everyone. Also, sexual attraction towards someone can grow as you begin to love them.

I am not a very sexual person, and did not expect to end up dating a girl. But I fell in love with her because of her brain and her heart. At the start of our relationship I was only mildly attracted physically because my love was based on the emotional aspects, but now I am extremely attracted to her and sometimes can't keep my hands to myself when she wears her hair in a braid or gets dressed for the day.

• Admit that some people can change themselves and their looks only so much before they have to resort to plastic surgery to fit a majority standard of someone who is desirable/dateable, and that such things as "lookism" only exists because women value looks more so than other features at the start of a relationship.

Yes, you can only change your looks so much. Yes, lookism is a thing. But it's not just women. People judge by looks.

1. It's human nature to judge things by looks. The way food is presented might make you not even want to try it. The way a car looks might turn you off to buying it. Should I stop by every restaurant on a street and try samples to decide which I want to eat at? That would sure take a whole lot of time and effort, so most people will pick based on looks. But some might try a less aesthetic one and be surprised at the quality of the food. Dating takes time and energy, it's not feasible to date everyone when there's hundreds of candidates, unfortunately the often-used aesthetic filter applies here too, for women AND men.

2. Women are often more harshly judged by looks. In fact it seems as existence as a woman is defined by appearance. In professional environments, politics, and especially media, women tend to be judged more on appearance where as men tend to he judged more on competence or ability. Women are also bombarded by advertisement telling them that their natural features are ugly, or they need x to look pretty. And beauty standards? Remember when thigh-gap was such a big deal, when only a small subset of women even had the physical ability (genes+luck) to have one? Sound familiar to any arguments you've made?

• Admit that women are hypergamous in nature and that it has only gotten significantly worse through things like tinder/social media

Another point that takes a general human trait and blames it exclusively on women. In the end, if you can get a dollar or a hundred dollars which would you pick? If you could have sex with a homeless woman or a supermodel which would you pick?

• Admit that women don't need a man for most things anymore and that makes men much more disposable

Okay so I'm not sure but it sounds like you kinda want women to be more dependant? This an extremely large red flag that will scare girls away. You know it might also increase hypergamy, that thing you complained about?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say you were basically trying to say "I'm glad women are becoming more independent but it kinda sucks because men aren't as 'needed' now." But I'm not sure how men are "more disposable" exactly, women still have emotional and physical needs. Many people still want to marry "up" or marry someone with money.

• Admit that not everyone has an equal chance at "love" compared to those of a higher social status either through beauty/wealth/popularity

I agree to this one, for the most part. I am still not sure if "love" means sex or love or something else. Money, looks, and popularity don't absolutely guarantee sex/love but they can make it a LOT easier. It can also make some things harder too, for example people might try to marry you for your money/status, for some it could be hard to find love that isn't feigned. But I think we all would rather have money/status regardless :)

That's all the time I have to answer, sorry.

I’d just be happy if they admitted the last point. I remember the psychological scarring being constantly called ‘creepy’ did to me in high school.

cope is a powerful drug

In this philosophical sense, yes. You are using your right to hurt him in that manner. Everything can be used as a weapon, words included. However, I never said that it would be morally wrong to do that for women. Some rights override the notion that no one should be hurt. For example the right of free speech overrides the desire of not wanting to be offended. Thus hate speech laws should be abolished IMO. Likewise a woman’s right to say who gets to fuck her overrides any incel’s hurt feelings.

What I take issue with is denying the vast inequality of the sexual marketplace in favor of women. I believe that if more men knew about it, women would lose some of their power. Of course that’s what they don’t want. But that would be good for every single man on Earth.

Behold: The kissless, hugless, handholdless virgin in its natural habitat. When confronted with facts and statements it doesn't like, it's quick to run out screaming "F-FAKER! N-NO WAY A SUCCESSFUL PERSON IS ON THE INTERNET!"

just keep copin'

That sucks.

Sending an unsolicited dick pic isn't picking up on social cues. Not taking no for an answer isn't picking up on social cues. Sending an anime inspired message isn't picking up on social cues.

I get it. I get that what i said could be offensive to people that are on the spectrum. But you asked for honesty and there it is. Being oblivious to whats socially appropriate is a massive red flag for most people.

Because what you said is an impossibility. Rejection is a male thing, not a woman thing. Women simply don't know it. It's not a basic "human" experience, it's a basic man experience.

I posted my reply to your other post before seeing this one so I shall respond to this one.

Thank you for finally answering one of my questions.

I used the physical appearance of some male celebrities as an example of women thinking guys outside of the typical 'chad' appearance are attractive

You cannot use celebrities as an example of this since 1) they are rich and famous and thus activate the natural gold digging/status digging instincts of females and 2) most attractive celebrities do not look very different from each other.

not every female has the same taste and a whole lot of guys would be surprised about whats considered attractive to different women

The overwhelming majority do find the same types of features attractive. Height being the most well documented one.

Do you intend to answer any of my other questions? Especially since you made the horrendous accusation of me not asking you questions literally just a few replies after I had asked you multiple questions.

Lol you have never been rejected. Stop lying. Women don’t get rejected by men. Only women reject men.

That because of the idea that men "lose" their virginity while women "give it away," they wouldn't want to take that concept and apply it to the gender that's "enforcing" the perceived hurt?

Yes, that's the part I don't see. I'd ask you to demonstrate the existence of that connection, and its prevalence, but we both know you can't. You're just trying to excuse a vile and evil behavior.

I think

Who the fuck cares what you "think"? You're just some name on the internet. Either back your opinions up or keep them to yourself.