No mention of plastic surgery, strange. If you aren't deformed, plastic surgery can boost your looks several points. Yes there are limitations but plastic surgery will most likely improve your appearance a lot. It isn't too expensive in countries like Brazil, Lithuania and Mexico.

Post saved. Black pill truths galore.

You have too little presence here, you are not going to receive as many ups as if the big names posted this

Lol incel politics

Someone should try reposting if possible...I'd really like to get IT responses to a guy who's looksmaxed. Wait they're gonna pull more excuses or gaslighting which is hilarious.

That's sad. It shouldn't be a fuckin' popularity contest like high school, it should be about what's true/what isn't true. That's how you get braincels to be an interesting and thriving community.

This is reddit, it's literally all just a contest for upboats

Not all subreddits are like that, though.

Not all but a majority enough to make this site cancer in general

Damn, I wrote this back in September or October. Lots of time has passed since then.

Did you get a girlfriend?

are you still single?

Beautiful. I would love to see what a normie's reaction would be to this.

Probably a pathetic mixture of triggering and denial.

Not really

Peep my reply

~A Normie's Reaction~ (Bear with me, I'm a bit sleep deprived at the moment.) HYGIENE/FASHION The OP seems to be pretty hygienic; I can't offer any valid counterpoints there. However, the critique regarding fashion sense seems to have been completely overlooked by the OP. Having your hair cut regularly and wearing clean clothes just doesn't cut it. Oftentimes, the incel types I know in real life will do everything the OP mentioned and just buy and wear random clothing items from "trendy" stores like American Eagle or Aeropostale, believing that fashion is just wearing certain clothing items rather than having a full on "look" or aesthetic. These guys seem to have no sense of style and, despite their nice clothes, look like elementary school boys whose moms recently stopped picking out their outfits. As a bi guy, I can honestly say that a good sense of style drastically improves a man's attractiveness. GYM/LOSING WEIGHT In my experience, style and the way you carry yourself matter much more. Working out and having a decent body does help a bit though, and there are always the tangential benefits of improved mental health and such. No large criticisms here. HOBBIES/SOCIALIZING The mere fact that you have hobbies is not enough to make you interesting or make you seem more attractive in the eyes of women. This isn't even an issue of being interesting in the eyes of women, but people in general. While I may admire someone for doing community service work, that doesn't automatically make them an interesting person or someone I'd like to have more conversations with. If you'rte able to discuss the details of what you do in a unique and compelling fashion or tell heartwarming stories of some of the kids you work with, then sure. But if your strategy is just to tell women that you do community service and then dully drone on about it... I don't know what to tell you. And that brings me to one of my biggest points: the incels I know are terrible at conversing with people and seem to be pretty unaware when it comes to social cues. I don't care if you've traveled to every country on Earth, if you can't relate your stories or verbalize your thoughts in an somewhat articulate or compelling manner, then you aren't going to hold people's attention, plain and simple. And you don't have to be Mr. Charisma to be a good person to have a conversation with. Finally, the hobbies themselves do matter. I'm sure you're passionate about hydroponics and botany and such, but it's not a very accessible hobby that many people find interesting. I (along with many other people) would probably rank it somewhere near rock collecting in terms of hobbies I'd be interested in talking to people about. I have a hobby/interest or two that most people would find dull or odd, so I don't talk about them, seeing as how people say little more than "Huh. Cool." when I bring them up; people aren't obligated to be interested enough in the same things as me to want to have a conversation about it. Those niche hobbies aren't accessible ones that most people would be fascinated to hear more about. Art, music, film, sports, politics, etc. are all hobbies that most people can have a semi-informed conversation about and will find interesting. I'm probably going to expand on some of these points later. The rest of the OP's ranting in this section seems to be rife with cherry picking and confirmation bias. SELF-IMPROVEMENT The OP's argument seems to boil down to "having to change and become a fun, interesting person is wrong and unfair." I find his argument about how wanting to improve oneself is in fact toxic both absurd and laughable. And guess what? Some people are naturally more charismatic than others. Deal with it. It amuses to me to no end how ridiculously conservative many incels are, but how strongly they advocate for equality of outcomes. And again, the OP cherry picks and likely ignores any information contradicting his beliefs. TREAT WOMEN LIKE HUMAN BEINGS I highly doubt that you guys actually do this. With all of your toxic and entitled attitudes regarding women, I have great difficulty believing you're able to completely set that aside while interacting with women. Guys who voice misogynistic and sexist beliefs to myself and other men in private ALWAYS treat women differently, whether consciously or otherwise. The ones who do so unconsciously always vehemently deny this, despite evidence to the contrary. HEIGHT Guys care about certain features as well and will treat women differently based on whether or not they possess certain desirable features. I just can't comprehend the feelings of entitlement when it comes to sex with women that many incels feel. At this point, my argument is losing cohesion, but I genuinely don't really care. I'll expand on my arguments later.

ok, so you're basically taking all of the shit he said, and flat out saying that he doesn't do it. I don't understand. How would you know whether he treats women like human beings or not? I'm sorry, but you come off as very standoffish and offensive in this reply. If working out has very little effect on your attractiveness, then how come normies spam incel posts telling us to work out all of the time? A lot of incels are also not misogynist. I am not, yet I have never had a gf/friends because I have very bad social skills.

Not really.

The fact that he totally ignored the fashion/style thing indicates that he doesn't understand what having a sense of fashion or style actually means. This is pretty fundamental.

As I said before, having hobbies isn't enough. They have to be interesting and you need to be capable of talking about them in a compelling fashion. Hydroponics doesn't really fit the bill. And as you mentioned, you (like many incels) seem to have a lack of social skills. What OP has written about seems to suggest this.

And I can't really speak for other normies; I don't know what to tell you there.

And I'm aware that not all incels are blatant misogynists, but pretty much all of them think about women as an entirely separate species. And it shows in the way in which they interact with women. Glad to hear you're not a misogynist, but you need social skills to get a gf/friends. I don't think that's wrong.

The fact that he totally ignored the fashion/style thing indicates that he doesn't understand what having a sense of fashion or style actually means. This is pretty fundamental.

How do you know he has no sense of fashion? I don't see anything he said that would indicate that. You're just kind of assuming things about him based on your interactions with other incels. Same with having hobbies; you're assuming that he can't articulate things about his hobbies.

Yeah, social skills are important. As important as looks, which is to suggest that both of them are necessary in attracting someone. The problem is that normies act like with social skills even ugly people should have no problem getting laid, which is not true. Plus, we don't even know if his social skills are good or not, in fact, we don't know anything about OP other than what he said, which makes it unfair for us to guess. Our main complaint is against the normies who act like we're incel BECAUSE of our lack of hobbies, fashion, hygiene, etc. This is rarely the case. We are normally incel because we have terrible social skills, are extremely ugly/deformed, or a mix of the two. Most incels are not hobbyless, styleless, losers.

I don't. But you don't know that he does and the fact that he completely ignores/discounts this aspect of the advice says a lot (IMO). I have never seen a fashionable/stylish man who I'd consider ugly. It just doesn't happen. A good haircut and a cool outfit go pretty fucking far.

And I'm sorry, but hydroponics is a hobby that the vast majority of the population doesn't care much about. Cooking is a bit better, but there's not a whole lot to talk about there.

And yeah, I'm making assumptions, just like incels do. Many (not all) of you guys tend to assume that you're not getting laid because women are shallow, dumb, etc. My assumption (a more reasonable one) is that you guys aren't approaching interactions with women in the right way or engaging in the right habits and behaviors. Occam's razor, pal.

And being able to articulate things about your hobbies is directly related to social skills. And that's what it boils down to; whether or not you can be funny, witty, charming, interesting, fun, etc.

And I never claimed that incels were hobbyless losers. But styleless? I believe so.

I also kickbox. Why are you focusing just on hydroponics?

Most people know little to nothing about kickboxing. Same goes for a lot of sports. Unless the person knows a decent amount about the sport or is really passionate about sports in general, your hobby of kickboxing isn't a great conversation topic, seeing as how you'll be talking most of the time. I tend to not talk about my sports of interest for precisely this reason.

Okay what hobbies should I do?

If you're solely looking for people to find you interesting? Traveling, some type of creative pursuit, politics, etc. And you need to be able to talk about them in a compelling manner.

ok, you may not be doing it, but I know a lot of people on inceltears/normies in general who tell us to get hobbies, which is annoying. And keep in mind the average person does not have very interesting hobbies, either. I have friends who don't have interesting hobbies who get laid zero problem.

ok, you say that you haven't seen people with a good haircut and a cool outfit that you would consider ugly. Well, I'm going bald at 19, so obviously one of those options goes out the window, lol. I dress pretty well, I would say, or at least, as well as I can, considering that I have basically zero disposable income since I am a student. I am really interested in fashion, though, and after I get a job and have more money I fully intend to buy better clothes. Generally I wear jeans/chinos that fit me well, flannels or button downs, basic, white sneakers, or boots. I feel like I dress fine. I have friends who dress very plainly and yet get girlfriends no problem.

I think most of it comes down to looks and social skills. But most of what normies say is very insulting and not accurate.

Then they're likely charismatic and/or capable of holding good conversations. I agree that it comes down mostly to social skills and perhaps appearance to a certain extent.

And what you just said about your own style choices is the problem. That you dress as well as you can, but you're limited by money. I get almost all of my clothes from thrift stores. Money shouldn't be an issue.

And I don't know about your style. I don't believe or disbelieve you, but I do have some doubts.

you can have whatever doubts you want. I consider myself pretty well dressed. I really think it's hard to blame someone in college for not dressing amazingly. I plan to go to thrift stores in the future - building a good wardrobe takes some time. I have a pretty good eye for color, and I'm thin so most clothes fit fairly well. My style is definitely not holding me back. What's holding me back are my terrible social skills derived from years of social ostracism, as well as the fact that I'm going to be bald very soon.

Again, your issue is with social skills. Improve those and find a way to deal with your hair issue (there are ways) and your love life and friendships with others will improve.

How do I improve my social skills, though? I do what I feel like others do - talk to people, joined a club, etc. but I feel like I've stagnated. I'm with my same group of friends since freshman year and all of us are complete nerds who don't have a lot of friends outside of the group. I've talked to people a lot more in class/around my dorm but whenever I asked them to hang out they always declined.

And there aren't any ways to deal with my hair. If it was male pattern baldness, there would be, but I'm losing hair because of a medicine I took (accutane), so propecia isn't going to work. Short of getting a toupee, there really isn't much I can do. I was on Rogaine, but it really didn't do anything. Truth is, if I lose my hair, I'm pretty much fucked for at least ten years because of how poor my social ability is. A normie would probably suffer a hit to their dating success if they went bald, but still ultimately get a gf because of their social skills. Unfortunately, I have none, and I've been trying for years to make friends but I've been coming up short all the time.

I know how to interact with people, but am afraid I can't offer any advice on how to do so. Genuinely sorry.

Yeah, it's odd. All my time in high school, I thought it was quite strange that I seemed to get along with people in class, but none of them ever wanted to hang out with me after school, and as I result, I spent pretty much all of my time alone in my room. I feel like I have no idea of how to bridge the gap between being an acquaintance with someone to being their friend. I just don't fit in with anyone on campus either. I go to a really prestigious, liberal university where everyone is very progressive, invested in social justice issues, and deeply entwined in a sort of facebook meme culture that I'm just not a part of. I just don't fit in, I think. I've lived my entire life on the east coast, but I've only had a handful of real friends.

I'm not a bad person, either. I never subscribed to the whole "fuck roasties, reeee" vibe that goes on here. I have hobbies, I dress fine, I go to clubs, I exercise, I take care of my body - I've tried all of the advice in the book, but it hasn't helped. People tell me to lower my standards, but the truth is, I'm not even at the point where I can lower my standards since I don't have the opportunity to ask a girl out. How can you have a girlfriend if you can't even make friends with girls? I just have very limited social ability, and I am paying the price for it.

Like seriously, nowhere did I claim that incels were hobbyless. DId you even read my post?

I wrote that. I can PM you how I dress if you don't believe I haven't worked on that.

I also kickbox as a hobby, isn't thst interesting enough?

Yoyr argument is basically that I haven't done all those things when I did.

yeah, I'd love to see what you consider a casual outfit, a work outfit, a going out outfit, and a date outfit.

Oh yeah because only the most interesting amazing godlike men get into relationships. Not horrible abusive losers with no aspirations in life. I've never seen dudes like that get a relationship.

LOL

The incel trope that abusive drug dealers get all the women amuses me. You guys latch onto rare cases and delude yourselves.

That dude with no aspirations? He's a goofball and fun to have at parties and pretty much anywhere else. What do you have?

That Normie trope that women don't care about things like height. You guys latch onto rare cases and delude yourselves.

That dude with no aspirations? He's good looking.

LOL

The cases of good looking guys with absolutely nothing else to offer getting laid and have countless girls thirsting for them are BS. Literally never seen it happen. Ever. You guys delude yourselves into thinking these guys have nothing to offer to feel better about yourselves.

And I never said women don't care about height. But it really isn't an impossible barrier to overcome.

Never said they had nothing to offer. And stop calling me deluded. It's really annoying and not very constructive.

Thing is when you're attractive or have any kind of positive reinforment throught your life really, it makes it hell of a lot easier to go about things like your personality and "attitude" towards things. It's because people give you more of a chance just because you are better or normal looking so it makes it a walk in the park. Think of it like a certain race or social class behaving a certain way due to the fact that the world treats them differently from another.

I know you didn't say that but you make it sound like it's no big deal when it is. It really is and it's really annying to hear anyone imply otherwise.

I don't believe in a fair or just world. I recognize that looks affect things to a certain extent, but I don't think it really has that enormous of an impact. Ideally, looks wouldn't affect anything, but that isn't the case. Blaming women or being misogynistic isn't the answer though.

Good maybe we can get along then. I do think it has an enormous impact because I have lived it. You have obviously lived differently than me so I can see and respect why you see it differently.

I don't blame women and am not misogynistic but I do hate it when people lie to me, insult me or belittle my problems.

and I've seen people get hired for jobs they aren't qualified for, and win scholarships over more deserving people (I did), and stay healthy despite smoking for fourty years. other people are always going to get lucky and be in a better place than you. it doesn't mean you shouldn't work hard.

Well at least you can admit that. And you're right it doesn't mean you shouldn't work hard. But a lot of times the people who work the hardest are the ones who get the least in any aspect of life really. It's just annoying to hear people say otherwise.

I used the terms hobbies and interests somewhat synonymously; my mistake. And being able to talk about such things in an compelling way is what makes you unique. Sure, you may be able to talk about those things (like most everyone), but can you make it an interesting, fun, or meaningful conversation?

Fashion sense is most definitely not as important as you are implying it is. Look at some of the shit rockstars, goths, hippies and hipsters wear. They have all pulled just fine if they are good looking. An ugly short dude dressing real nice is going to do very little to improve his attractiveness.

I disagree.

Nice rebuttal.

It's a matter of opinion and I believe that many incels are somewhat delusional due to their bitterness and victim mentality. Formulating an argument isn't worth my time.

And I believe that many Normies are somewhat delusional due to their positive reinforcement in life and their just world fallacy. Great then why are you here again?

And yet you cared enough to spends seconds of your time typing it out. Why?

nope. the shit that rockstars, goths, hipsters, and hippies wear all fit certain aesthetics. they might not be your personal style, but they are all styles. also, fashion sense is VERY important for a first impression, at least for me. if a dude dresses like a slob (ill fitting pants, shirts that are too big or too small, looks like he dresses himself in the dark, lack of cohesion in the outfit, clashing colors, improperly sized suits, poorly tied ties, graphic tees are the only thing he wears, etc) then it instantly causes me to lose attraction, and depending on how poorly he's dressed, it may turn me off from him entirely. it's kinda like with birds, fashion sense is often the first thing I notice.

I'm not saying you have to go out tomorrow and buy all designer outfits for thousands of dollars. I'm saying buy clothes in your size, throw out or donate ones, and put some thought into your clothing. I'm Russian, and there's a cultural phenomenon among women, that you never know when you'll meet your husband so never go outside in a bad outfit. that's how I live, and I'd expect men to do the same.

In my experience this just isn't the case. Majority of the average Joe American men dress like shit or just normally and they aren't expected to do anything more. If anything a dude who dresses too nicely over here is considered gay or weird. Maybe it's different in Russia idk.

Anyway I still can't really see how an ugly short dude that is already repulsive would instantly become attractive just because his socks match. Just seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

man I am American, dressing too nice isn't a thing. no girl turns down a guy "because he dresses too nice". of all the girls I've talked to in my life, there's not a single one that would turn down a man because he dresses well. I know it definitely gets my attention for sure.

and there you go, completely ignoring my point. there's a difference between having mismatched socks and having your whole outfit look like you put it on in your sleep and then promptly gained/lost 20 pounds. if your shirt is 2 sizes too big/small, don't wear it. if you think it's okay to wear a Canadian tuxedo, it isn't. don't wear a lot of the same color, it looks like a uniform (eg red shirt and rust colored pants). making sure your outfits are cohesive is easy and simple once you get the hang of it.

But you just said you were Russian...

I didn't say dressing too nice was a bad thing I was just saying that it's not really all that common for a dude to have a high sense of fashion unless he's at least a little fruity or just a pretty boy.

I'm not ignoring it. It wasn't being literal about the socks. I was just saying that dressing nice isn't going to do that much for someone who is short or hideous. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I am an American born to Russian immigrant parents, with a Russian extended family, who speaks fluent Russian. just because I am one culture does not mean I cannot be another.

having standards does not make you a pretty boy. don't go out dressed in a wrinkled, ill-fitting graphic shirt from 2012 paired with blue jeans that sag over your ass and scuffed, muddy sneakers. just because your chances are worse doesn't mean there's nothing you can do to improve yourself. that's half of your problem.

life wasn't handed to you like it was to others, so you don't want to improve even in minor ways to up your chances of success. dressing nicely is honestly one of the simpler things you can do, and here you are, making excuses that you'll look "fruity" and that you're "short and hideous" so it won't matter anyway. do you not see how your attitude affects your success? no girl wants to be with a guy that gives up so easily.

Oh shut up. I dress fine. It's never done anything for me nor has it for any of the people here. I do it though because I'm not a dumbass or a slob despite what you might think. I'm just saying that most dudes don't and it doesn't affect their success.

This entire post was about how well rounded and how much effort this guy puts into his life and you people still come to spew your bile about how he's not trying hard enough.

My "attitude" is a result of my failed experiences not the cause of them.

Dogshit platitudes. Do you think he drones on about doing community service? Why even bother typing out this worthless drivel?

semi-normie- you are spot on. These are very uncomfortable truths for normal people. Not only are you saying that "earning" women is unlikely for an incel, you are saying normies and chad don't "earn" anything either. It isn't so hard for them to accept incel side as being unfair, it is their side they have to see as fair or it blows their entire worldview. That is why they always say work harder to improve. If you haven't succeeded you must be doing something wrong. When really they mean they are doing something right. It is nearly impossible for them to admit they aren't doing anything. They desperately want to believe the world is fair.

There is nothing you can do they can smell your low value weakness from miles

My first comment in this sub, hope I don't get eaten alive lol

For this guy it's all about personality at this point. It's unfortunate that he's short and not good looking, but a KILLER personality can make it all up. I know a 5'3 Asian dude that's got serious game.

There's no magic formula for having a killer personality. IMO the only thing you absolutely need is confidence. Other than that, you can be any combination of fun, funny, reckless, playful, nurturing, and interesting. You also CANNOT be condescending, bitter, hateful, or depressing.

I also just wanna say that I know it's hard for you guys, I don't have any condescending thoughts like "just get a better personality sheesh". I only genuinely want to help.

At this point I just wish there was a way that we could make ourselves just not care about relationships. It is impossible for us and being angry or fighting Normies about it is just starting to feel dumb. I just want to delete that part of my humanity and pretend it never existed to begin with.

but a KILLER personality can make it all up. I know a 5'3 Asian dude that's got serious game.

and how can i get this killer personality?

Confidence confidence confidence. Its hard I know. When I was a virgin I had zero confidence. I was nerdy AF with glasses and crooked teeth. Got rejected a ton.

Had a huge glow up in college, thought girls would come flocking to me. Nope. Why not? I realized that fear of rejection was holding me back and making me put the girl on the pedestal.

Once you find yourself, once you start to love yourself, find what makes you happy, your confidence will skyrocket.

girls would come flocking me.

-_- a good looking dude lol

Excellent post it put everything I had in my head into words.

I hope you don’t spew all this incel garbage to these kids you claim to “mentor”

Good maybe we can get along then. I do think it has an enormous impact because I have lived it. You have obviously lived differently than me so I can see and respect why you see it differently.

I don't blame women and am not misogynistic but I do hate it when people lie to me, insult me or belittle my problems.