Let’s address the ‘we’re not misogynists’. I’ve seen posts where guys say they’d rape a woman if they knew there’d be no consequences. I’ve seen posts where they say women are incapable of self care, intelligence, mental illness, or being good for anything besides a ‘set of holes’. I’ve seen posts where they laugh at women being tortured or children being shot. That’s misogyny. I don’t care if you’re ‘venting’ it’s disgusting and cruel. There is no good excuse for it. If somebody treated you badly I’m sorry, but what you don’t get to do is make everybody else miserable right along with you. Don’t deny what you are.

This is a serious question for me, a ‘normie’, so I’ll answer it. Everybody is dealt challenges in their life. Some people have to deal with sexism, racism, ageism, etc. Some people hear voices constantly telling them to kill them selves. Some people are born with twisted limbs and can never move freely through a world that wasn’t built for them. Some people are sexually abused by family members and deal with the after effects for the rest of their lives. I’m sorry that your particular challenge is your appearance, and that people have treated you badly for it. But I’m not going to buy into some giant conspiracy that everybody’s out to get you, because it’s simply not true. I’m not out to get you. Everybody I know is not out to get you. We’re just going to school or work. We’re just trying to live our lives, put food on the table, get a decent amount of sleep at night. We really don’t care all that much. IT or the videos reading posts on YouTube is just cheap entertainment, like chuckling at posts from flat earthers. It maybe takes up 10 minutes of our day max.

Sometimes people are just assholes. Letting that consume you and become integral to your identity - establishing an entire complex around it and not seeking out any joy or fulfillment anywhere else just makes sure the assholes come out on top. I’ve seen the catcel thing on here and I think those are great tips. There’s literally no reason to be miserable all the time. Take care of yourself. See a counselor. Join a club. Make some friends that don’t constantly gatekeep each other about who’s the REAL cel, the MOST cel. I’m not going to tell you to change your beliefs, because you probably can’t. But maybe if you experience that people you think are attractive or are just ‘normal’ looking aren’t all the soulless monsters you’ve made them out to be then maybe your beliefs will change of their own accord.

Anyway, I’ve rambled enough. That’s my answer for you. At the end of the day, even if all this grand conspiracy is real (spoiler: it’s not) there’s really nothing to be done about it, so you might as well try to enjoy the life you have and deal with the hand you’ve been dealt. And if you want to talk to me and ask me questions I’m more than willing to do that. I guess since I, a woman, want to talk to you, you can’t say you’re truecels anymore.

Best of luck, guys.

Please provide Proof of said posts before you run your mouth.

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But I’m not going to buy into some giant conspiracy that everybody’s out to get you, because it’s simply not true. I’m not out to get you. Everybody I know is not out to get you. We’re just going to school or work. We’re just trying to live our lives, put food on the table, get a decent amount of sleep at night. We really don’t care all that much.

I agree there is no grand conspiracy and that the vast majority of people aren't deliberately "out to get" ugly people, but that doesn't mean they don't unknowingly uphold or support the collective, inherent biases and mistreatment of ugly people. As an analogy, I would say the vast majority of people are not hateful, overt racists who strive to oppress other races, and the vast majority of men don't hate women or go about their daily lives trying to make women's lives harder, but systemic racism/sexism exists and influences society.

Systemic racism and sexism have large scientific bodies of work behind them supporting their existence. Unfortunately, there's nothing for that in terms of 'lookism' besides some evolutionary theory on sexual selection. That's mostly in relation to other species though. There would need to be a lot more work to establish exactly what it is, and what institutions use it for.

Saying that the majority of people somehow support mistreatment of ugly people I think is incorrect - I wouldn't know how they would support it. There's been a lot of pushback in recent years against seeing ugly people as outcasts or clowns - look at the movement of people with Down's to be fashion models, actors, entrepreneurs. Look at the fat acceptance movement. Look at the anti-bullying movement. There's been a real shift in how we view our looks.

Are there still double standards to work on? Absolutely. But just hating people or women or society in general does nothing to fix it.

Systemic racism and sexism have large scientific bodies of work behind them supporting their existence. Unfortunately, there's nothing for that in terms of 'lookism' besides some evolutionary theory on sexual selection.

Agreed that there is much more scientific support for racism/sexism. I do believe there have been studies finding a correlation between height and income.

Saying that the majority of people somehow support mistreatment of ugly people I think is incorrect - I wouldn't know how they would support it.

• By making jokes that mock or assign negative stereotypes to ugly people. These are pretty common on social media. (A couple recent examples from this sub: 1, 2) I know jokes are just jokes, but they don't exist in a vacuum - they're rooted in actual beliefs. And somehow I doubt that jokes making fun of a certain race, gender, sexuality, disability etc. would be nearly as popular and accepted in mainstream culture.

• In their personal lives, in their choices of whom they have romantic/sexual relationships with. Now before anyone takes this the wrong way, I don't mean that we should police people's preferences or that it's morally wrong to reject ugly people. But it is true that success in dating/sex contributes to how one's status (or value? not sure of the right word) is evaluated. Therefore, if the population collectively rejects someone for their looks, it labels that person a "loser" (to some degree) and lowers their value in the eyes of others.

There's been a lot of pushback in recent years against seeing ugly people as outcasts or clowns - look at the movement of people with Down's to be fashion models, actors, entrepreneurs. Look at the fat acceptance movement. Look at the anti-bullying movement. There's been a real shift in how we view our looks.

Hmm, of course my experience is limited, but from what I can tell, I honestly feel like these movements are not "mainstream" or reflective of the general population. I mean, the fat acceptance movement is frequently criticized, and (unfortunately) lots of people make fun of people with Down's. Anti-bullying is a little different IMO, it's not specifically about looks.

I guess it depends on how you view the average person. Based on my observation I feel that, with regard to looks, the average person is not especially nice, and is fairly shallow - not necessarily in a deliberately mean way, although some are. I wonder if you might be overestimating, in your mind, the prevalence of nicer people who would support those movements you listed, and understimating the amount of shallow or mean people who wouldn't. I went to a college with a strongly liberal/progressive student body (whom I think would largely support those things), but I'm well aware that they are far from representative of the entire population. I'm not saying my perception of society is perfectly accurate either, but I just wanted to raise that possibility.

It's important to remember that correlation and causation are not the same thing. Murders go up at the same time ice cream sales do. Ice cream doesn't cause murders. Making jokes that mock ugly people are a problem, but assuming that 'everybody' appreciates or accepts those jokes is just that - an assumption. At the end of the day, it comes back to your outlook on society and whether or not it's mostly good or mostly bad. I tend to trend towards the mostly good. But just like you I could be wrong. It just goes back to what I said where wallowing in it or actively hating people does nothing to fix it.

It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!

Here is link number 1 - Previous text "1,"

Here is link number 2 - Previous text "2"

^{Please PM /u/eganwall with issues or feedback! | Delete}

There is literally nothing wrong with being a misogynist and it's time to get over it. Are you expecting people who have faced vicious rejection from females their entire lives to be cheerleaders for femorrhoids? Also, anybody can just log in to Ribbit and say ridiculous shit about rape and the problem with hated subreddits is that they are subject to normies doing this all the time. It's the simplest type of psyops for garnering sub-reddit ban support.

If you’re a misogynist then claim it. OP tried to deny it. Yeah there’s something wrong with wanting to deny 4+ billion people basic rights because a few treated you badly.

Please don’t pull the ‘no true scotsman’ here. It’s just silly.

deny 4+ billion people basic rights

Chofl as if I ever suggested that, I just hate femorrhoids and want to be away from them.

Ok that’s great I don’t know how you would ‘be away from them’ without stepping on somebody’s toes - rights-wise.

What? I just LDAR in my apartment all day, retard.

Oh great, ableist and sexist. If you want to live a miserable and unfulfilling life that’s up to you. Just keep your misery to yourself and don’t support people trying to harm us or infringe on our ability to exercise our rights and there’s no problem.

ableist

Hahaha is it because I used the term retard, retard?

keep your misery to yourself

OH NO THE GREAT ARCHAEOAG HATH DECREETH BETTER LISTEN lmfao. I've never "infringed on rights" I've just complained about femorrhoid cunts on the internet. Calm down.

I’m calm. You’re the one yelling and name-calling.

Yeah because you used a slur.

Advocating for the revocation of rights counts as infringement. If you haven’t done that, then like I said, there’s no problem. But if you do those things, you should definitely expect a lot of backlash. If you’re laughing at the misfortune of people you can’t just complain that ‘you want to be left alone’ because you’re not leaving us alone.

I'm calm

"SEXIsss ABLEISSS" yeah really "calm".

I have the right to laugh at your misfortune, and you can log off the fucking internet if that's a problem for you. You have a fucked up view of what constitutes "not leaving alone". Dumb fucking shit: commenting things you don't like on the internet isn't "infringement" of anything. If you think it is, then the problem is you and your terrible mind.

I never said commenting was infringement of anything. But if you’re not leaving people alone done expect them to leave you alone. It’s pretty simple. If you don’t like what women say or do on the internet then you’re just as welcome to log off. If you’d rather spew your vitriol then be ready for pushback. And don’t lie and say you want to be ‘away from us’ when you’re coming into an arena you know we’re going to be. It’s really simple.

Also, you misquoting me doesn’t change the fact that I’ve been calm and rational with you this entire time.

Lol I don't actively check what women are saying about me.

You know we're going to be.

hanging out on /r/braincels?

calm and rational

Calm =/= correct dumb cunt. And you're irrational, I don't give a fuck if you push back. Go head and comment some more, it's no needle in my urethra to slap it down.

Yeah that’s exactly where I am. Sorry but braincels isn’t your safe space.

What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense. You say you want to be left alone. Now you say you don’t care. Which is it?

I’ll comment all I want. Don’t need your permission, but thanks for your green light anyway.

I never said calm equaled correct, but alright.

Saying I’m irrational with no evidence doesn’t make me irrational. Deepest apologies.

There is literally nothing wrong with being a misogynist and it's time to get over it.

There is literally nothing wrong with being sexist against men and it's time to get over it

Sexism of any kind is not tolerated thank you very much.

There is literally nothing wrong with being sexist against men and it's time to get over it

Yes, correct.

Sexism of any kind is not tolerated thank you very much.

IT IS DECREED.

Why do you think sexism is okay?

Do you think an incel has a moral obligation to help a woman being raped?

Can I ask why you keep asking this question?

Because I love blasting apart the arguments of oppressors with facts and logic.

Uh yeah I think anybody has a moral obligation to help anybody if they’re being attacked by somebody else or are in a position of danger.

On top of that check the bystander laws where you are because you might have a legal obligation to help somebody or at least notify authorities.

Fuck that shit, if someone's in danger, they're on their own.

They should've worked hard, pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and never been in danger in the first place. Why should they be entitled to my help?

Ok great that means you abide by a different set of morals than most of society and people are probably going to view you as a bad person and not want to be around you. But as I said I would check the law on that, because in some places you are legally obligated to do something.

Pfft, they can have a pity party and be a self-victimizer all they want. That doesn't mean that I have to help them. And even if the law said I have to; Why would the police waste their time coming after me when they could be helping someone in danger?

They wouldn’t be a self-victimizer if somebody was actively victimizing them.

Police do things that people perceive as a waste of time early and often.

All victims are self-victimizers. If it's a legitimate victimization the victim's body has ways of shutting all that down.

What does the body shut down exactly?

It shuts down the victimization of course. If the victim doesn't consent, it doesn't count.

You stopped making sense about three comments ago. I pray to god you don’t experience the pain suffering that is the aftermath of sexual assault.

Would you disagree with me saying that women have a moral obligation to help incels with their suffering?

Yeah but not in the way that you’re thinking. Nobody’s obligated to have sex with anybody. But I would say women are obligated to treat you with kindness, decency, and respect as an equal human being. Like I said in my original comment I get that people are assholes and that sucks and I’m sorry I don’t think you deserve that.

There is nothing incompatible about being with an ugly man instead of a goodlooking guy. Women have a moral obligation to relieve us of our suffering.

You can’t force attraction or romantic feelings. Women don’t have a moral obligation to have sex with people. You don’t have a moral obligation to have sex with people. That’s just the way it is.

So it's okay to let people suffer because that's just the way it is?

No. But it’s also not ok to just transfer that suffering to a different group of people by forcing them to date or have sex with somebody they don’t want to. The goal is to eliminate the bad thing, not just create another bad thing and pass it on.

But if an incel helps a woman his own suffering is being perpetuated since women don't help him? Why do you expect incels to work against their own best interests but not women.

Helping or not helping a person who is in trouble is unrelated to your suffering. Or at least it should be. If you expect something from somebody for helping them or get some weird satisfaction out of their suffering because they haven’t done anything for you then there’s something seriously wrong.

Can you actually argue for this position ethically? Why is it wrong to expect something in return?

Because of altruism. If you’re doing something for somebody else just to see what you can get out of it, it’s not actually for them, it’s for you. As an empathetic person you should help people because you want to reduce general suffering and make the world a generally better place. To only do things for people when they do something for you is just narcissistic. Now that’s not to say you should /never/ do anything for yourself, but if you’re going to help people, you should definitely do it for them, not for some weird ulterior motive and expectation of a reward.

A system in which people just blindly help each other as much as they can for no reason at all will go extinct. Altruistic people need to be rewarded in order to exist at all.

If an organism gives away it's resources for nothing in return, how will it survive?

A system in which people all help each other thrives because everybody is helping each other.

As far as women ‘altruistically’ donating their bodies to you there are several reasons. One is having ‘pity sex’ can be extremely psychologically damaging for the giver and the receiver. It may conflict with their personal or spiritual beliefs. Take me for example. I’m monogamously married. To ‘donate’ my sex to incels would be a breaking of my marriage vows. However, there are sex therapists that exist though that would be more than willing to help you I’m sure.

Not reading this wall of text, especially after you said we would “rape women.” Please provide a source for that or stfu.

It’s also not a “conspiracy” that women consider looks to be the biggest factor in starting a relationship.

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Your "black pill" is nothing but a straw man, based on pure ignorance.

Of course personality matters. And of course looks matter, and money, and time of day, mood, even random chance. All you can do is raising all these factors in your favor, but that literally all everyone can do and does.

So what you call black pill is simply pointing at one of the numerous factors one has to balance, and singling it out as if it is the only one.

But reality is much more cruel then you think. Everything you do or don't could matter, and probably does.

TEEHEE

you forgot a few yalls

[citation needed]

Oh yes. Because there’s totally a Tinder equivalent for personality and money. Looks are singled out because society singles it out.

I believe you. You are all human beings. Delusional human beings. See, you are right about almost everything, but the thing I, personally, hate the most about incels, is that all you do is brag. I have never seen an Incel talking about how he's trying to so hard to become a better person. All most of you do is brag and blame others for your problems. You, are the only person that can make your life better. If you think a women, friends, family, any of those things would make you happy, you're believing in a lie. Anything can make you happy, if you are willing to love yourself and accept yourself, and try to better yourself for that thing. I'm not really good at explaining stuff, so pardon if that makes you confused, but what I'm trying to say is, better yourself. Be gentle, be humble, be respectful to others above all things, and they will start doing the same for you. Be willing to learn, and you will learn, be willing to get stronger, beautiful, smart, to be social, to be a good person to be around, and you will achieve these things. But just bragging, that won't achieve anything

I almost turned into an Incel too, when I was younger. I thought of myself as ugly, unloveable, as a rat who people had pity and would never have friends or a girlfriend. In retrospect, I was delusional. I thought people had to be my friends, I was entitled to a girlfriend, that the world owned me happiness, when in fact, I'm the only one who can achieve happiness for myself. I realized that, and started to better myself. I was super smart, a really good student, and, like most people, I thought I was a genius. I was just one of those kids who were smart in childhood, and, because of my constant appraisal I felt I was genious. Poor me when I realized I had to study to get good grades. Anyway, I started to become a bad student, so I could focus more on myself and my social life. First, I made friends, true friends, which I love and care about, I learned about them and was curious to know about them. Then, I made female friends, because I knew shit about women, and, making friends is a great way to learn about their life. It was hard and awkward, but I learned how women are also humans with the same needs as me, some of them felt weird, disgusted, they were super afraid about the future, just like me. And I learned about how they hate when a men fake being their friend, just to later on, ask her to be their girlfriend, they felt betrayed and ended up with a broken heart. I used to this to get women, never worked lol, but I used it anyway. I understood how she felt, because I had friends like she, and I thought how would I feel if a friend of mine did that. I would feel terrible, just like she feels. And those things, those small achievements, for me, were the biggest things. I had made friends, I understood how women felt, I had female friends, I felt disgusted on how I acted in the past, but I also felt pride in what I did, I had changed myself. And still am changing.

That was 5 years ago, and honestly, I feel bad when people bash Incels or other "hateful" people, because I can see myself in their place, blind, delusional, hating on random things because I didn't knew no better, it would be how I viewed the world.

I believe you when you tell me all you want is to be loved and accepted. But you also gotta believe in me, when I say that love and happiness does not come for free, and you have to keep chasing it. Better yourself, mate.

English is not my first language, and I have never wrote something this big and from my heart before, so pardon me for the many english errors. This is how I view the world today, and how I used to see it, hopefully it helps someone or it helps me in some way. Love you all, be happy, folks. <3

👏👏👏 The hero we need but don’t deserve

well...it's like asking to a healthy person what's living with a deadly disease, or lactose-intolerance. they don't understand that there´s people with an inability to perform as normal humans

Not just a normie, a girl even. A fairly attractive one.

About being attractive: it is important, to a degree, and unless you've been hideously malformed in some industrial or chemical accident, it's possible to reach that standard. Especially for guys, it really just involves hygiene, eating healthy, going for a run every once in a while, and doing your hair.

Now, if you're a girl you have to wake up 2 hours early each day for all your routines. Yeah, those "sluts" who have it "so easy" would stop being attractive the moment they stopped putting in that much effort. They work for it.

And yeah, I do perceive that person to have a better personality than the person who just gives up and blames the people who haven't given up for their misery.

This subreddit is filled with hate. You people hate girls, attractive guys, almost every post is literally just tearing someone apart. Sluts. Cum-dumpsters. Femoids. Whores. "Average at best". 9/10. You don't even see girls as people, I think. I'm not surprised the people from this sub are alone.

(Edit: have you ever, genuinely, had an interaction with a girl where you were trying to just have an interesting conversation with her and not get in her pants? Yeah I can fucking tell. Your large nose doesn't creep me out, the fact that you see me as a vagina on legs does)

Girls are just people. I understand that you feel bad, but you're blaming it on people who have their own shit. And in this sub, people are not just blamed, they are dehumanized.

You want to be treated like a human? Change starts with yourself.

Don't you think most people on this subreddit didn't already try to looksmax? We don't have it as easy as you and can just put makeup on to cover all our hideous flaws. What a useless comment with things we already heard 1000 times. "Especially for guys" lmao thanks for the laugh. If you don't have good facial bone structure you are fucked as a guy. Please tell me what a guy can do whose head is smaller than his neck. People like this dont exist for people like you, so I don't blame you.

Edited cuz I was bein a bitch Where I shouldnt of been

It's a thread called "Normies, why do you deny the black pill". Oh boohoo I posted.

I don't live life on easy mode, I'm gay. And all the girls I've fallen for so far have been straight. Now go cry some more about how terrible you have it.

Actually agree with you. Sorry, In my country its 6 am and I haven't slept at all. Didn't even realize I was in a thread that specifically wanted you to voice your opinion.

That's okay, sorry for the harsh reply. Some of the things I read got my blood pressure up. Also 6am here xD

Exactly. I was talking to another person who said "I think its a woman's moral responsibility to sleep with us because we are sad and deserve happiness".

But then said (im not making this up) that police should not help rape victims, because women don't help Incels and then bitched about paying taxes because his tax dollars pay to help women (they pay police to help rape victims) when the women wouldn't help him, by sleeping with him.

That line of thinking lost me...

Yeah I know, I want to feel bad for them but then they get so extremely toxic and just hateful...

Ouch. Strange brew in here.

A guy has to be six feet tall and muscular to be attractice. All a woman has to do is have boobs.

Really, because one of my friends is dating a 5'3 Asian guy with glasses? She says she likes him because he's smart and really attentive. They've been together for 2 years now.

Actually none of my friends are dating guys who are over 6 feet or muscular, although one of them does have an angel face.

Ok then. Tell the truth. Is your friend asian as well? Did she used to let a lot of white and black guys ream her pussy befire dating him?

Also, why did you bring up the fact he's Asian when I never brought up race? Do you view them as inferior like most women do?

Actually no, I think Asian guys are really cute, but they aren't very Chad like I think. And no, my friend is white, and she never fucked around. He's her 2nd boyfriend.

>Also, why did you bring up the fact he's Asian when I never brought up race? Do you view them as inferior like most women do?

Lol, this again proves that they subconsciously think asian men are inferior.

Are you unironically using "having glasses" as a negative attribute? Jfl.

it really just involves hygiene, eating healthy, going for a run every once in a while, and doing your hair.

that's what women have to do you fucking idiot. you don't know the first thing about fucking someone because all you have to do is say yes.

dumbass.

dude. Did you even read what I wrote? I literally wrote, in the post you responded to:

Especially for guys, it really just involves hygiene, eating healthy, going for a run every once in a while, and doing your hair.

Now, if you're a girl you have to wake up 2 hours early each day for all your routines. Yeah, those "sluts" who have it "so easy" would stop being attractive the moment they stopped putting in that much effort. They work for it.

what, now you're illiterate? no man ever got laid by taking a shower, eating his vegetables, exercising, and combing his hair. that's the dumbest shit i've ever heard.

No, I said that's what guys need to do to be attractive enough to date. Then there is a whole personality area you clearly need to work a lot on.

Women rate 80% of men as below average. Do you honestly believe for a microsecond that 80% of men are not bathing, exercising, combing their hair, eating their vegetables.

You're living in la la land sweetheart.

So only 20% of men have ever dated a girl?

So girls only date guys they like?

... Sorry, what? Couldn't you think of an actual answer?

Your question made as much sense as my response. That's not what those numbers indicate.

Okay I'll outline it for you:

1) I said that for guys it's not that hard to be attractive enough to date, you really just need to take basic care of yourself

2) You said that no man ever got laid by just taking care of himself

3) I said that taking care of oneself is required to be attractive enough to date, but that there are other areas that also factor in

4) you said that 80% of men is physically rated as below average and asked me if I thought all those men weren't taking care of themselves

5) I asked you if all of those 80% of men had never had a girlfriend

Your point was: Because at least some of those 80% of men are taking good care of themselves, and they are still rated below average, what you said must be untrue.

My point was it is true because no way in hell 80% of men has never had sex.

5) makes no sense. that's the problem.

I'll outline further:

I said to be attractive enough to date (or get laid, whatever, be a romantic...) you need to take basic care of yourself.

You said that 80% of men are rated below average, and therefore apparently not attractive enough to date/get laid (otherwise I don't know what point you were trying to make)

I then said that a good deal of those men are getting laid.

Do you understand it? Even though they are rated below average they can still date? As a guy you don't have to win beauty contests?

80% of men are seen as below average

the fact that they can't get laid isn't because they aren't doing basic shit that literally everyone does especially young men trying to get laid. it's because the game is fucked. women see men unrealistically. telling guys they need to shower and eat their vegetables to be attractive is fucking retarded.

Okay, describe a girl to me.

I'll wait.

Was she ugly? Didn't think so, huh?

To be attractive enough to date you need to take basic care of yourself. To be actually considered attractive, yeah, you need to be pretty.

You're on a sub for people who believe they are so ugly they can't get laid, and you are accusing them of not doing basic shit to take care of themselves. This is incredibly rude. On top of that, they are living in a world where 80% of men are rated below average. So they never stood a chance to begin with. Women have impossible and unrealistic standards. A guy could be a 5 and be seen as a 2.5. And meanwhile even ugly girls have no trouble getting laid, which is why women can't possibly imagine what it's like to live in a world where people aren't trying to fuck you.

No, I live in a world where I'm extremely lesbian and am constantly turned down myself.

Those ugly girls? The ones with the poofy hair and acne? Yeah, noone is asking them on dates until their face clears out, and they learn to do their hair and makeup. Those were my friends and they were lonely as fuck.

Past 25? Not a girl anymore, you're old now and past your expiration date. Men can keep going until well in their 50s - or even longer.

I know a lot of guys that are ugly that have girlfriends. They got them by treating them as people. They didn't start dating until they fell in love, they got to know each other first.

I've seen people post pictures in this sub of guys that are supposed to represent them. They have long, fuzzy hair that covers their face, they look moody, they wear clothes that don't really fit and look like they dug them out of the laundry, they have stick thin arms, they look pale and gaunt, and yeah, if you associate with that image, you could improve a lot by taking care of yourself.

JFL at a gay person talking shit to incels.

are you fucking shitting me you idiot. if only you knew how fucked straight guys are. you're living in a whole nother world.

.... So now you're going to ignore what I've been trying to tell you because I'm gay? You couldn't find anything better to reject it on?

It's not written on my forehead that I'm lesbian, people assume I'm straight. And I have friends that I'm close to that have been doing the straight-people dating thing for long enough. Not that this actually matters, you don't want to listen.

What you want is to stay miserable and have me tell you that, yeah, it's totally unfair and there's nothing you can do about it, and until I say that you'll just keep nitpicking until you find something to disagree with.

I'm getting tired. Good luck on your personal journey.

You're living in a completely different world.

Good. Bye.

salty?

I have, actually. Mostly with women too tall to ever want to date me but also a few that I found attractive but didn't see as potential partners. I've found that most of them are absolutely vapid as shit and the second Chad comes around with actual intent to get in their pants, it's well received. I think the most forward thing I've ever said to a female was inviting a girl from my history class to a dance the school was holding that weekend - shot down like a dog and lit on fire too, since the rest of the femoids in the class regarded me with utter fucking disgust and contempt forevermore.

The ones that aren't vapid are pretty bro-ey, but they still consider ugly nigg*rs like me subhuman and the worst is when you're having what you believe is an interesting conversation that you both are into but then Chad comes along and her pussy melts and instantly drops our convo about Roman History to switch to talking to Chad about the latest braindead tv comedy.

Is it so fucking hard to just admit you femoids live life on debug mode? I've had situations where I literally just walk into a fucking room minding my own business and before I've even sat down half the Stacies are already glaring at me like I pissed in their corn flakes. Whenever women, even ugly women walk into a room, they can at least expect to get a smile from half the betas in there.

I'm gay. I don't "live life on debug mode". Now that we've gotten that out of the way,

In general: no one is looking at you when you enter a room. I can guarantee you that because most people are way too self involved to even notice someone entered.

Now if this is like a meeting or something, when people do actually make eye contact, tell me this: before you go into this meeting, are you already telling yourself everyone in there will dislike you? When you meet a woman, do you get uncomfortable and expect to be turned down?

We can see written all over you, but most people won't interpret it correctly and just think you hate them / are a hateful person.

Honestly, read this:

Is it so fucking hard to just admit you femoids live life on debug mode?

You're really angry, people can sense that kind of thing

You're really angry, people can sense that kind of thing

But they can't sense when Chad's a wife beating asshole teehee

And no, let me tell you this, they do look at me. I've accidentally made eye contact with one of the glarers twice - her and her group of Stacy friends were looking straight at me like my mere existence offended their sensibilities. It's hard to believe, because as a woman you have never and will never get a look nearly as hateful and poisonous.

Whenever I talk to a woman I'm attracted to just because I'm attracted to her I don't expect to be turned down, I just don't expect anything to happen. Since that's usually what happens.

Generally no, because Chad beating his wife is not about random person and chad won't bring his feelings of anger with her into the conversation.

Expecting nothing to happen is functionally the same as being turned down in that scenario.

And honestly, I'd love to see a recording of how the staring would go down. Have you ever had any bad experiences with these women? Do they know you? Where do you see them? If they are anywhere halfway decent people, they wouldn't stare unless given reason, so I draw the following conclusions:

1) They are shitty people (there are plenty of those, in that case you need to be able to look down on that behavior as childish and something that belongs in high school. You are the teacher now, and your life is filled with more important things than the stare of someone who's mentally stuck at 13)

2) They've been given reason

I don't even know any of their damned names. I have never interacted with them, nor will I ever. I deliberately sit on the other side of the room to them. In that particular class, I only speak up when directly addressed.

Expecting nothing to happen is functionally the same as being turned down in that scenario.

But if I expect something to happen I'm an entitled piece of shit? I really cannot win.

It's okay to expect and want something to happen, but if you receive a "no" you respect that. If you approach a girl not believing you're good enough for her, you won't act like you are.

As for those girls, they just sound like the bully type. And yeah that can really suck, I'm sorry.

But ask yourself, if these girls are so judgmental and shallow minded that they will make you uncomfortable when they don't even know your name, are those the girls you want to think highly of you? What would that say about you?

approach girl

make friendly small talk for a few minutes

"Hey I think you're really pretty, would you like to come to the Homecoming dance with me?

"Uhh, no. No and no."

"Oh, ok, sure. Sorry for the bother."

Next day find out there's now a rumor going around about how I'm a creep and a borderline rapist

As for the gaggle of bully girls? They're probably the highest status femoids in class. If their opinion of me is negative it's probably going to influence everyone else's.

Yeah ok, your school sounds really shitty that's not normal or okay, wtf

Normie here.

Society does prefer attractive people.

You absolutely can be rejected based on looks.

Attractive people are sometimes perceived as having better personalities. Honestly though, they're just as often perceived as aloof or bitches because of their looks.

Given that I don't really disagree with any of the above - the disconnect comes when you decide that all the above is true, now what will I do with that? Yes, life is harder for less attractive people. dating is harder, love is harder, it's all true. But it's not impossible and life is all about hurdles to surmount. We all have different hurdles, and some have more than others. So do you work on surmounting them, or give up and roll over? There's the difference.

Btw your father was a shit for yelling at/abusing you. I'm thinking that may come into play here.

how bad are your looks?

Yea it isnt impossible for 4/10 cels. But for true cels... GG

we won this thread

What did you win exactly? The right to be miserable by choice? Depression is a real thing, but choosing to hate the world is different. Look, life isn't fair, what you have to do is work with the cards you're dealt. Or you can just give up and be miserable, your call.

https://imgur.com/a/X75Jl

Cmon man, don't let the opinions of others fuck with your head (especially on the web)! I once had a pretty attractive girlfriend who told me she really liked my big nose and thought my messed up teeth were cute. I've had women tell me my big ears are sexy, females are weird dude. Yeah there's the shallow ones, but you're MUCH better off as an ugly male than and ugly female.

Women are attracted to confidence! Own your looks, pursue your hobbies, and grow thick skin...it'll help bud.

https://imgur.com/a/X75Jl

Good luck sir, I hope one day you'll realize you're the one keeping yourself from being happy.

https://imgur.com/a/X75Jl

Hey I'm a woman and I get similar fucking reactions online if I show my face for any reason. I don't go crying and say "oh poor me society is so fucked up women are so shallow. I'll never get a date" ive been asked in real life to my face if I was a trans man. I'm literally a lesbian with short hair. That's it. I screw those people and move on with my life. Not that I don't have low self esteem or anything, but I still realize that there's more to life than my looks.

First of all, great post.

Is it so hard to believe that some people are just not attractive enough to be respected as a normal person would?

No it's not hard to believe. This is true.

Is it so hard to believe that society prefers attractive people?

Nope because they do.

Is it so hard to believe that you could be rejected because you aren't attractive enough?

Absolutely and it happens quite a bit. Some of the time it's due to other factors or a combination of factors, though. For an incel looks are the reason for any rejection, always, 100% of the time -- do you agree that the number is likely less than 100%?

Is it so hard to believe that attractive people are perceived to have better personalities than ugly people?

No, generally speaking this is true.

How can you, with such conviction, honestly say that a lifetime of rejection is done so by ourselves?

It's not. One thing is there are different ways to interpret negative events and rejection. Incels tend to do it in a way that's very harmful to their results and happiness

Can't I just live my life, why aren't borderline deformed people like me not allowed to be treated as human?

Are you borderline deformed? I just can't trust incels on this subject. A lot of the times it's a normal looking dude who has just been rejected and thinks he's ugly. I know the deformed guys have it really tough, no question. But that's not even 10% of incels, but the narrative would have you believe it's 90%.

All the people who talk about raping women are just copers

I've agreed with you on a lot here but can't excuse any comment that condones rape

we just want to be normal people with a partner who would at least respect us.

Good, do you believe this is achievable? Because it is. Usually have to fight through 12 defense mechanisms to prove it though.

We aren't some danger to society, we aren't really mysognists, and we certainly aren't some freaks that needs to be gawked at, we're just human beings.

Fully agree mate.

My thing is that even if 100 women have to reject you before you find 1 that genuinely likes you. so be it. You go for the 100. If the number is 1000, you go for 1000. You never let anything get in the way of what you want. That's what I believe. http://afterincel.com

My thing is that even if 100 women have to reject you before you find 1 that genuinely likes you. so be it. You go for the 100. If the number is 1000, you go for 1000.

You call a guy who gets rejected 1000 times a brave man. I call him an idiot who can't take a hint.

I didn't call him brave though, you did. I call him logical. Man craves X. How to get X? He does whatever it takes. What other way is there?

There is an example of the difference between how I speak to myself, and an incel might. Incels have it very hard, no doubt. If I personally ever refer to improving mindset, these are the subtle changes im talking about that in the end make a huge difference. It's not "the problem is your personality". End of the day so much of life is mindset. One makes you stop and blame the world. The other takes it and bends it to his will. this is what my site is going to be about so again a shameless plug: http://afterincel.com

PUA is a dead market. Roosh V and his ilk have already milked that cow dry. I suggest you look elsewhere for your quick buck.

Not interested in PUA or a quick buck, appreciate the offer though

Ok. Good luck getting these cynical, depressed loners to pay for your online coaching services.

You'll need it.

I'll be continuing to put out articles which will be free. I expect perhaps 1/100 to be interested in coaching, but I expect to change that person's life.

Call them cynical, depressed losers if you like, but that contributes nothing to humanity. The vast majority here are not losers but have had to come up with some way to explain their rejection. Blackpill satisfies that answer, but it's also a shit life. There are better answers.

My thing is that even if 100 women have to reject you before you find 1 that genuinely likes you. so be it. You go for the 100. If the number is 1000, you go for 1000. You never let anything get in the way of what you want. That's what I believe.

am not a psychopath who doesn't have emotions. if i get rejected a lot i would feel depressed.

Is a psychopath the only type of person who wouldn't get depressed in that situation?

Rejection is painful, even for confident and outgoing people.

What if they didn't believe that the rejection said anything bad about them?

Most people cannot maintain that level of cognitive dissonance

So you believe your worth and value is purely derived by external means? That a stranger on the street defines your worth and value more than you do?

You're barking up the wrong tree. I'm in a relationship already, but I never had to deal with rejection. Most people meet by friends introducing them to each other, not by some idiotic pickup game on strangers

I never mentioned pick up or game, you're projecting.

I pity you if you haven't had to deal with rejection. Good luck once the relationship expires.

Why talk about dealing rejection if it doesn't have to do with pickup or atleast trying to charm strangers? What else could you be talking about?

Also typical how you want to wish pain on some random dude who hasn't even bad mouthed you up to this point

I asked if you think your self-worth is determined by others, do you think so?

I wish anyone and everyone the pain of rejection. Hence why I said I pity you for not experiencing it.

I've had ex's before if that's what you're implying. When I said I have not experienced rejection it is from women, as in I do not ask random strangers out to face such rejection

Understood.

So do you think your self-worth is determined by others?

Yup, rejection is basically "I don't like you enough to even give you a chance." It hurts so bad it's almost palpable.

What if you didn't care enough about the person's opinion to let it bother you? Why does this random individual get to decide how YOU feel about yourself?

People are very social creatures, how others feel about you has a big impact on how you feel about yourself. Unfortunately that's just how the brain works.

It can and it can't. That's a decision you get to make. You let others define you or you can define yourself. One is easy and painful, one is difficult and liberating.

Negative bias is overly strong with them.

Depression gone bad

just lower your standards and fuck girls in your own lane, its not hard. But you losers think you deserve a Stacy so you bask in self pity and anger like a bunch of losers who will never enjoy a womans embrace. Realize how attractive you are and go after similar women. Women do this as well for the most part unless they find a hotter guy who is desperate and looking to smash

Nobody here thinks they deserve a Stacy.

then I dont get why this place exists. Guys here seem to accept they are ugly or undesirable but still are alone? Unattractive girls have similar self esteem issues but yet they dont have communities like this. Get out more and shoot your shot

That's exactly the point you retard. Ugly girls can get guys easily. That's why they don't need communities like these. 😒

You're a good person, but sometimes you say things that aren't true.

I'm sorry. But it is mostly true. There's a reason there're no Incel communities for girls. Because they'd be swarmed with guys offering them relationship.

There's r/ForeverAloneWomen.

Which is private because like I said, they'd be swarmed with offers if it wasn't.

The FA sub isn't private and girls post there.

And I bet they get lots of offers too.

I post there.

dude you are an idiot. Hit the books and the gym if you are ugly and you can get very hot gfs. You guys would rather just wallow in your self pity then put in work

Lol

I've probably read more books than 90% of the girls. And I already go to the gym. Now what?

Well thats a start but i meant like study and have a decent career prospect. I guarantee you either come off as not confident or as an asshole if you are still having issues. Or you just don't put yourself out there in the real world enough

I have a decent career prospect. I'm neither an asshole nor unconfident. And I do put myself out there. Now what?

u ugly famalam.

Thanks for the reminder.

idk man I lurked your profile and saw that pic you posted. I have a friend who is much uglier who works as a line chef who dates decent looking women. Women can tell when a man lacks self confidence so it might be that or you are just too online and don't have much of a personality outside of this toxic place. I would say just find some cool hobbys and meet women that way or change your approach. I can tell you though that there is hope for you. Maybe bathe and wash your hair with shampoo more, idk if its lighting but you looked a bit greasy. But again i think there is hope for you if you are willing to change a bit

Your friend is also 30 year olds most likely.

naw he is early 20's. how old are you? most people don't get laid much or at all until 20. I have a friend who was a virgin until he met a cool girl when he was 25. He is kinda fat and doesn't have a good job and lives at home with his parents, he is also shorter than average. She is much more attractive than him but they still have a great relationship. It is possible you guys would just rather place the blame elsewhere

Whatever dude. I'm not fat. So it doesn't matter. I'm ugly and that's the only reason.

lol you aren't even that ugly but whatever helps you sleep at night

Yeah. Girls just like calling me ugly for no reason.

Can't take anything you guys say as serious... you are better looking than 50% of Indians I've seen. Are you in US or something?

Why'd it matter?

Because Indians are less popular partners in US than in India.

So you think Indians are subhuman? What do you think is the reason?

No I don't really, I'm not in US and I'm not a woman. I work with a lot of Indians in IT, talking to one now, and they are generally serious people. But I know that western women don't have Indians as a dating preference. I don't think any Asians are very popular with western women.

But you asking that question implies that. You think Indians and Asians are subhumans. You are racist.

The f. No. I'd say you got 99 problems, but your face ain't 1.

You're a racist shit.

Only /u/Board_Gaming can judge me

You shouldn't have tagged her.

Well it says that low-quality racebait is an offense to the right, so I'm reporting myself.

We all have pretty decent careers, some of us are even richer than you. Now what?

go out more and leave this toxic sub forever, but i know you guys like it here because wallowing in self pity is easier than putting yourself out there

Unattractive females exist, but they aren't incel - they still get fucked by Chad. With vanishingly few exceptions, females cannot be incel.

lol you literally didn't listen to anything I said. Unless you are extremely ugly, don't bathe, and also have a repulsive personality (which tbh you likely do since you are here) then you can 100% get a gf if you stay in your lane

Unless you are extremely ugly

So you admit that ugly men are doomed to be alone?

Good. That's more or less all we're saying.

I am talking deformed pretty much like 1/10 and even then I think it's possible, just verryyyy hard

Unattractive girls have similar self esteem issues

Unattractive girls get fucked in the ass and then have their faces sprayed with Chad's cum all the fucking time, just less frequently than Stacy.

Unattractive girls are either fat, unhygienic, or deformed. Mostly fixable. Men are unattractive because they have weak chins, shit eye areas, negative canthal tilts, and disgusting facial proportions.

I tried lowering my standards but I couldn't compete.

Turns out you need to be an 8 to talk to a 2

And Women rank 80% of men as below average

And you think that's bad? There's no gym for your face.

that's all retarded

you got an 88 iq

I don't.

I'm an ugly fat slob with the hairline of a 50 year old Vietnamese man at age 19 and I still manage to do fairly well I'm the dating game.

I believe in it There’s biased everywhere for everything I personally try my best not to act that way

I don't deny it, I bathe in it. I bask in its depravity. I chew it, bitter, for faster absorption.

Because everyone can achieve salvation through Christ homie.

Cope.

It is a cope, it’s also true.

EDIT: Please note, when I say you, I don't specifically you, I just mean in general.

Is it so hard to believe that some people are just not attractive enough to be respected as a normal person would?

Yes. If someone doesn't respect you just because of your physical appearance then they weren't people you'd want to hang around anyways. And yes, while all females have some preference in appearance, it doesn't 100% eliminate you from the running.

Is it so hard to believe that society prefers attractive people?

If you were to graduate from HS or College and stay away from those respective scenes, women find stability and ambition very attractive. Just work on yourself.

Is it so hard to believe that you could be rejected because you aren't attractive enough?

That's just real life. People have preferences, so do you, so do the majority of incels, what with saying they won't date a "middle-aged women" or a "landwhale" or anything in that direction. So you've no right to complain about preferences really.

Is it so hard to believe that attractive people are perceived to have better personalities than ugly people?

Again, if you're hanging around people that believe this, then you're hanging around the wrong type of people. This is definitely not all of society.

How can you, with such conviction, honestly say that a lifetime of rejection is done so by ourselves?

I'm not going to say that all of your rejection is done by yourselves, but there are various factors to consider here. Are you looking in the right places? How are you looking? How are you conversing with these females? Are these females already taken and you just don't know? If they aren't, what are they looking for that you didn't fulfill? You can't even answer the last two questions on your own.

Until you've 100% corrected yourself and all the mistakes you could possibly see for yourself, you have little right to say that females are rejecting you unjustifiably due to an existing bias they have towards appearance.

Part of the problem is this mentality that females are just "Entitled bitches that would rather die than date someone ugly." I've been looking at the incel community since late November to be honest, and a lot of the examples that I seen thrown around (such as this for example), while I admit are stupid, aren't that bad. Yes, there's some dumbass females out there whose very existence is a plague on humanity, but it's definitely not the majority.

To be honest, I'm not going to lie, maybe I'm just an incel in denial or I'm already semi-blackpilled as I find a lot of what the incel community says to be at least partially true. However, I'd still much rather turn to the red pill than fully consume the black pill of hopelessness.

This isnt just about getting laid. Ugly is life on hard mode in every aspect. Try finding decent clothes for a job interview when you are a bean pole. Everything looks like wrinkled ass on you, as mens clothes are made for men with shoulders. A small, or skinny man, even a man who never gets large, broad shoulders will always be seen as a child by other people.

Your life is hard because you're skinny and clothes don't fit you properly. I don't really have a response to that. My BMI is 19.4 and clothes fit me pretty well.

Let me address your over-arching message that being ugly makes life hard. No it doesn't. Being ugly doesn't stop you from getting a job, making friends, picking up a hobby, eating, or doing anything in life actually where appearance is not a major factor. It can only really stop you from getting a relationship, and even then, it very strongly depends on a variety of factors.

How about you do this. Because looks are subjective, even ugly people are attractive to someone. And attractive people are ugly to someone. Therefore, you are not ugly. You are not attractive. You're just you. Your view of yourself and how you view your supposed ugliness will dissuade people from associating with you more than your actual appearances will.

I did not say it stops you, I said it makes it harder, my job is a very good one because I've forced the issue and networked hard as well. I also have a relationship, and have made vast improvements to my appearance. I'm on this sub to try and give some hope, or motivation to some others mostly. But because of this I've seen both sides of the coin, and I can tell you for a 100% I was treated differently by both sexes, and even in "professional" setting at 6'1" and 135 (a 6ft man who cant curl a 25 pound weight 10 times to give further perspective) than I am now at 175 as a rather ugly gym rat. Appearance has a direct link to confidence, and telling someone whos appearance is shit to just be confident anyway is a direct insult to that persons intelligence, and it makes you look like a condescending asshat. The defining moment was when I noticed an older friends wife specifically addressing me in a group setting with the same type of voice/actions one uses to make a younger child feel included.
This whole you're treated the same ugly or not is a harmful lie from those who dont even realize how that works that only keeps them from improving. Appearance is the first thing someone notices about you, and shades every other observation. A smart handsome guy is cunning, and clever looking, an ugly one is conniving and sneaky looking, and etc. It sets the tone of every interaction we have in person, every day. A handsome man who is ackward and shy is cute, an ugly one creepy. Not complaining, this drove me to fix my shit, but stating the fact.

Appearance has a direct link to confidence, and telling someone whos appearance is shit to just be confident anyway is a direct insult to that persons intelligence, and it makes you look like a condescending asshat.

That's just not the case. Appearance does have a direct link to confidence, but that doesn't mean your physical anatomy of your face and stuff (you know what I mean). Your outward appearance and the aura you have around you, both part of how you appear as a person, can tell people if you're confident or not. You can be "ugly" and still exude a shit ton of confidence, which is why people who are "ugly" are told to be confident anyways.

I think a problem here may be that many other incels might have is that they confusing physical beauty for appearance. Your physical beauty only makes up part of how you appear as a person, and the rest is completely in your control: the way you dress, the way you walk, the way you talk, every small micro-habit you have. These are other things that are in your control that make up your appearance, and because you can change these things, it is possible for someone who is ugly to still look completely confident.

This whole you're treated the same ugly or not is a harmful lie from those who dont even realize how that works that only keeps them from improving.

But you are treated the same. You're still allowed in stores, public places, people will still talk to you, you can still be employed. There's no discrimination based on looks going around. Also, your life is not even harder because you're uglier. That's poppycock and I demand some more examples (empirical or not) or statistics or anything that proves this is true.

Now, if you were to say that your love life is harder because you are uglier, then yes, I'd say you might have a case. Might. But I don't see how your ugliness seeps into other aspects of your life to make them more difficult. When I was thinking about it, the only thing I could draw was that an employer might pick an attractive female over another man if they both have similar credentials, but other than that, that's the only example that I can envision someone truly discriminating based on looks. And that example very, very seldom happens.

Appearance is the first thing someone notices about you, and shades every other observation. A smart handsome guy is cunning, and clever looking, an ugly one is conniving and sneaky looking, and etc. It sets the tone of every interaction we have in person, every day.

I have never heard those connotations before with those two things. Maybe in cartoons where all of the evil-doers have an unattractive feature to sway the audience away from them and it's all black and white good and evil and everything else Disney. But definitely not in real life.

I have heard of someone not being attractive but being given the benefit of the doubt because of multiple other observations. It happens all the time. Lemme give you an example. At a party, there's always X who is going to be much more attractive than Y, but Y doesn't care and gets laid anyways because Y doesn't focus on the fact that X is more attractive than him, but instead focuses on bettering his game and what he can do better as a person. I hope I don't need to draw a specific story up for you to actually take some stock from this example.

What I'm getting at here is, let us assume everything that you've said up to this point is correct. What would making it a focal point in our lives do to benefit us? "Girls won't go out with me because I'm unattractive, I didn't get a job because I'm unattractive, The barista at Starbucks gave me a medium instead of a large because I'm unattractive." That doesn't really do anything but just make you depressed and pitiable.

If you really are ugly, then focusing on it is not going to do anything, and you should just ignore it and improve other parts of yourself. If you aren't ugly, then you don't even need to worry. See either way, there's no cause for worry. This is what I do. Whether or not I'm actually ugly, I could care less.

Its great you noted that cartoons villians are always ugly, and heroes good looking. Children are the most pure untempered bits of human instinct we can find, as culture hasnt effected them much, and cartoons are designed off what they feel and identify with. They identify ugly with other negative traits. Children are merciless against those whos appearance is strange in anyway, or who are ackward because they havent learned not to yet. Adults have learned not to, but that isnt human nature, so they are more subtle about it.

As for discrimination due to being ugly no, not really what I'm claiming. What I'm claiming is that its noted and influences other decisions. The small guy is treated differently at the water cooler than the normal guy. Being treated different isnt just someone saying you cant shop here, or in that line. Its more subtle than that, but you will see it if you watch for it. It happens when you ask to try on clothes at the store to see the employee sneer, as if there is no point, it wont look good on you. When you say excuse me to get to seat at a theater and see the same person who jumped up to let your friend by waits a second with eye contact for you, to prove they don't have to move. When you get cut in line at a store, and the woman looks shocked you dared even say she has cut you to her. When someone explains things to you as if you are an idiot, because they saw your looks and assumed you are. See a womans reaction when a guy who isnt hitting on her approaches her for something, say to schedule an appointment with a receptionist. No hitting on, no advances attempted, no lines, no reason for suspicions, yet if the guy is ugly she will suddenly become very guarded. Men will change as well, they will become more aggressive towards those they feel superior to. An ugly but friendly and outgoing man is seen as desperate, and to much, an oitgoing attractive one is jovial, and warm. I have a friend I've known for years, who is totally different towards me now, than he was when we first met and I was weak and ugly. It went from "lets do this this", to "do you think we should do this?"

The X and Y example, I'm betting Y wasnt that ugly, just less attractive than X. We are all less attractive than X at some point. I would agree with you it isnt about being compared to the other guy at the moment, but what society considers average looks. Its not about looking better than X at any given time. Its about not looking so bad its a standout quality. Your other qualities dont matter very much if the first thing noticed is you are a man child, or the blob. Everyone has a type, but you may very well not be anyones type.

People still sometimes casually ask me how I got my wife, as if I'm not worthy of her somehow and must have used some trick. It entertains me that most of those men are just pretty, and useless, which luckily for me isn't what my wife is into.

I'm not onboard with this subs some people cant improve mentality, but the basic fact that appearance effects us far more than we are led to believe is true. Ideally I would tell everyone who considers themselves an incel to lift, every day. The rest will follow, but the initial change is always to appearance.

What I'm claiming is that its noted and influences other decisions.

Everything you listed is on a super-micro scale and don't affect anything besides maybe your mood. In the end, you still got the desired effect, so technically, it doesn't influence their decisions. Just their attitude towards you. And honestly, you shouldn't care about anyone's attitude towards you. If people just don't like you, honestly, who really cares until it influences something you have to do?

Why should you care that the employee sneered at you because you were trying on clothes to look better? Shame on him for being negative for no reason. The guy took one second longer to excuse you after going back to sit down after excusing your friend? No wonder. The receptionist becomes more guarded after seeing how unattractive I am? That's great, maybe she'll work faster so I'm gone. I could do this for every single example.

If you are no one's type then you're part of an extremely small percentage of people that are just unfortunate, but the fact of the matter is, I'm more than willing to bet that 99.9% of these incels do not fall into that category, are only average-looking or slightly-below average looking, and most of the influences on decision that they perceive as negative is all in their head. Not to mention that people in this category still go on with life, so focusing on negative influences and what not just isn't going to benefit you.

TL;DR

It seems like you and I won't be agreeing on much here. I respect your perspective and approach on life. You thought that attractiveness was an influence in everything and therefore decided to become more attractive. It's commendable and a great approach to the problem that you had. However, I just don't believe that attractiveness is everywhere, or even in the majority of places in life, and that you just need to ignore attractiveness. Obviously our two trains of thought are going to conflict, so we should agree to disagree.

19.4 BMI isn't skinny lmao what the fuck

I sort of agree, but scientifically speaking pretty much everyone rates attractive people better than unattractive people in fields unrelated to appearance. Its just an unconscious thing that happens.

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2010/05/unattractive-people-pay-price-court

Example of it happening in court where people should be objective and just

Do you think an incel has a moral obligation to help a woman being raped?

It is the right thing to do to help a woman being raped irregardless of if you're an incel or not. I don't think your ability to gather female attention should factor into whether or not you'd want to save someone from an experience that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

However, you're never obligated to do anything. I just said the "right thing to do," but if someone decided they didn't want to get involved in that situation, it's not really an issue.

Do you think it's morally acceptable for a woman to reject an incel because of his looks?

It's morally acceptable for a woman to reject anyone based on their looks. Just like if I, a guy, were to decide I'm not approaching this female because I don't like how she looks, it's acceptable for a woman to do the same.

So why is it morally wrong for someone to not help a rape victim just because she is a woman?

Because picking a woman for romantic relations with and saving a woman from a terrifying situation are not the same thing and aren't even close.

Whether or not you go out with X or Y or Z doesn't make a difference in any of their lives if you say no. However, if anyone, not just a woman, were getting raped and you decided you weren't going to help them because you don't like X factor about them, then you willingly let a person get harmed when you could have stopped it for an unimportant reason, and for that, you're morally wrong.

Women let incels get harmed when they reject us our entire lifes over something we can't control?

The amount of pain that a women feels when she gets raped and the amount of pain a man feels when they get rejected are on two very separate levels. Comparing getting rejected by females all of the time to getting raped and having a trauma that will haunt you for years or maybe decades is just pointless because one completely outweighs the other.

Incels are rejected their entire lives over something they can't control. How is a lifetime of loneliness and despair good for your mental health?

Yes. Accepting someone as a romantic partner is a choice, not an obligation.

Do you think an incel has a moral obligation to help a woman being raped?

Why does 'incel' make the statement any different? The answer is still yes.

So why is it morally wrong to refuse to help a rape victim just because they are a woman?

Is this a joke

edit: please don't be this stupid :(

Why is it okay to condemn incels to suffer just because of their looks but it's not okay to do the same to women?

Of course, free choice man, we all have it and should

Do you think it's morally wrong for an incel to ignore a female rape victim?

Do you think the government should punish inaction?

Nah, inaction can’t be punished in that way... it’s your discretion Obviously morally you should help though

So you don't think we should infer our laws from morality?

In this case no. It’s impossible to fight a case in this way, as to convict someone you’d have to prove so many virtually impossible things

Did he know it was a rape Did he have the means to respond (Remember, the rapist could be armed, and if the onlooker is not.... also, if the onlooker is also armed, he could be breaking the law just having the weapon) Obviously he could raise an alarm, but that directly endangers his life, and might incite the rapist to further violence.

It’s just too legally marshy

So you're proposing a system where the state shouldn't punish people who are morally wrong?

Are you okay with incels being forced to pay taxes which help women?

Course I am, we pay taxes that help women, pensioners, kids, immigrants, every class of society, including our own

That’s the point of taxes

Should incels be punished if they don't pay their taxes?

Yes, like everyone else

Legally you shouldn't be charged for not doing something. But if you see someone getting attacked (and a woman getting raped is a woman getting attacked) and can do something and don't, them shame on you imo. If you can live with that then honestly that's something I consider wrong.

So you're proposing a system where the state shouldn't punish people who are morally wrong?

Are you okay with incels being forced to pay taxes which help women?

I like this. It's an interesting discussion.

So morals are personal and subjective. Just some examples:

Majority of people think it's morally wrong to rape people. I've seen posts here that say they are ok with it.

There are people who say it's morally wrong to have sex before marriage (religious types) and a lot of people who disagree.

The difference is that rape is an attack on someone unwilling. 2 people Having sex before marriage (and consenting) doesn't directly affect the priest who is morally against it. The woman morally against rape is 100% affected by the man who doesn't care and rapes.

Now the question is what laws are you talking about?

My personal belief is that taxes should be very little (libertarian here). Taxes help society. What taxes are you talking about?

My moral system is based on reciprocation. For example: I wouldn't want to be killed, so I don't kill other people.

I think that women have a moral obligation to help incels with their suffering, since I would help women if they were suffering (i.e being raped).

Now the question is what laws are you talking about?

Tax related.

My personal belief is that taxes should be very little (libertarian here). Taxes help society. What taxes are you talking about?

Incels are killed if they don't pay taxes to a government which funds a police force which helps women who are being raped. Incels are forced to fund a group of people which oppresses them and discriminates against them unfairly.

Women and normie males have sex and live relatively fulfilling lives. However, women withhold sex from incels, which means that incels are treated unfairly by society despite adding as much to it as normies and women in the form of taxation.

Can you link me examples of people being killed for not paying taxes? I don't believe if you don't pay taxes the police will kill you.

But again. How do your taxes specifically fund women. What programs? Taxes don't pay for birth control. They don't pay for maternity leave. They don't pay for abortion. What do you not want to fund anymore?

Saying woman withhold sex means you think you're entitled to it. I urge you to change that mindset. You're not entitled to anything. ANYTHING. You're not entitled to a house, you're not entitled to running water, and you're not entitled to someone else's body. Women dont owe you sex.

Why do you think you deserve that? Do you honsitly offer your services to a 300 pound woman who hasn't showered in a month who complains about not getting laid?

Can you link me examples of people being killed for not paying taxes? I don't believe if you don't pay taxes the police will kill you.

Literally every state is backed by violence.

If you don't pay your taxes, eventually a police man will arrive. And if you don't consent to being arrested, you will be killed, eventually.

But again. How do your taxes specifically fund women. What programs? Taxes don't pay for birth control. They don't pay for maternity leave. They don't pay for abortion. What do you not want to fund anymore?

The Police department when they help female rape victims.

Saying woman withhold sex means you think you're entitled to it. I urge you to change that mindset. You're not entitled to anything. ANYTHING. You're not entitled to a house, you're not entitled to running water, and you're not entitled to someone else's body. Women dont owe you sex.

Why are women entitled to my tax money and my help if they get raped?

Why do you think you deserve that? Do you honsitly offer your services to a 300 pound woman who hasn't showered in a month who complains about not getting laid?

No I fucking hate fatties. Keep the zoo away. Being fat is a choice, being born ugly isn't.

A more serious response; I think watching your weight falls under hygiene. I think people should have to care after themselves if they expect to get married, not just for their partner but also for any children they have.

Ok so you don't think people should get helped if they are raped? Do you think you deserve help if you get attacked?

Ok. Would you sleep with an ugly woman? A woman who doesn't have great skin, maybe pimples? Maybe is too short and doesn't meet your perfect standards (or societies?)

Ok so you don't think people should get helped if they are raped? Do you think you deserve help if you get attacked?

I don't think women should expect help from incels if they get raped, since women don't help incels with their suffering.

I deserve help since I would help other people if they were suffering. (assuming they haven't slighted me before, like women have)

Ok. Would you sleep with an ugly woman? A woman who doesn't have great skin, maybe pimples? Maybe is too short and doesn't meet your perfect standards (or societies?)

Sure.

But you're linking all woman together by saying that. Just because one woman rejects you doesn't mean all will. Or all will be jerks. Just because one ugly guy was creepy to a woman doesn't make it right for her to assume all ugly men are creepy

But you're linking all woman together by saying that. Just because one woman rejects you doesn't mean all will. Or all will be jerks. Just because one ugly guy was creepy to a woman doesn't make it right for her to assume all ugly men are creepy

The problem with this analogy is that goodlooking dudes are never creepy. It's extremely biased.

People are not individuals, they are parts of a group. Feminist women are by definition oppressors.

You wouldn't think twice if somebody discriminated against Nazis or slave-owners. But because it's an oppressive class you like, it's wrong.

Ok. So why should a woman be obligated to sleep with you and why are they bad for not wanting to sleep with you?

Ok. So why should a woman be obligated to sleep with you and why are they bad for not wanting to sleep with you?

Because being alone your entire life is suffering.

Ok. Do you do your part to help other people no suffer? Have you done anything to help yourself and specifically what have you done

Ok. Do you do your part to help other people no suffer? Have you done anything to help yourself and specifically what have you done

I think you forgot the part where incels are already forced to help other people through taxation.

Ok but not just Incesl. Everyone is forced to pay taxes. How are you different

We don't get sex. I.e our suffering is not relieved.

How is that the same? You are not being attacked. Happiness doesn't need just come from getting laid. You gotta put work into yourself if you want to meet someone. Tell me, what do you actually do to better yourself? Women don't want to be someone who thinks that if they do things they earn the right to sleep with them. Don't consider women objects, they are people.

What do female rape victims do to actually better themselves? Happiness doesn't come from just not getting raped.

Since you're to dumb to understand what this argument is about, let me explain it for you. You want incels to be forced into helping women but not the otherway around. That's hypocritical and exploitative.

I'm going to assume you are in america since you've talked about taxes and the police in a way an american would.

You are guaranteed life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. If you are unhappy it is your job to better yourself and figure out how to be happy. But that does not get to infringe on someone else. You want a woman to fuck you. There is more to life than that but you seem to think that the only way to be happy is to have sex. Fine.

If a woman doesn't want to have sex with you, then change something or fine someone who does. Many they have good reason because of your attitude. People don't want to be around someone so openly negative all the time. You seem like a very negative person. You're pursuit of happiness does not get to infringe on theirs by forcing them to have sex. If you truly think that its a moral thing to have pity sex with someone, then fine someone who has the same morals as you, no matter how rare. There are nazis who find spouses so your cause may not be lost.

In regard to the police thing. If you don't think the police we all pay for should help women when they are being attacked, then you shouldn't be helped when someone breaks into your home at night and tries to kill you.

Your view of being entitled to someone else is toxic and I can't explain it to you any further. You need to help yourself if you want others to like you.

"If everywhere you go smells like shit, its time to look at your own shoe".

You are guaranteed life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness.

Yet the government provides much more than that, and especially to women.

Why don't incels have the liberty to not pay their taxes, which indirectly fund their own oppression?

You're pursuit of happiness does not get to infringe on theirs by forcing them to have sex. If you truly think that its a moral thing to have pity sex with someone, then fine someone who has the same morals as you, no matter how rare. There are nazis who find spouses so your cause may not be lost.

Yet you want to force incels to help women. You're a giant hypocrite.

In regard to the police thing. If you don't think the police we all pay for should help women when they are being attacked, then you shouldn't be helped when someone breaks into your home at night and tries to kill you.

Except I pay for that?

Your view of being entitled to someone else is toxic and I can't explain it to you any further. You need to help yourself if you want others to like you.

Why are women entitled to my help, but no the other way around?

"If everywhere you go smells like shit, its time to look at your own shoe".

Sure thing buddy. "Every single incel is a misogynist that just hates women for no reason at all and is in a giant conspiracy to make their own life as miserable as humanly possible"

What does the government supply more to women?

Ok yes you pay for the police to protect you. And women pay taxes to have the police protect them too. Next.

I don't force incels to help women. You can decide to do that. But when you pay for a police force to protect you, don't complain that a woman pays for the same service

Women aren't entitled to your help. You don't help women. That has been made clear by your own words. But you then complain that women won't be with you. If you want something you either accept you can't have it, or figure out how to get it. In this case it sounds like you want a women for sex. Fine. But you've found women don't want you. That's because you've presented them with yourself and they didn't want it.

If I'm making a sandwich for someone and it tastes horrible, I'm not going to bitch to them and say they should eat the sandwich. I'm gonna fix the sandwich or give it to someone else who wants it.

Regarding your last comment: that's how most people see you. You feel you are entitled to things that your not and refuse to look at yourself or fix things. It must be everyone else's fault seems to be the Mindset of most of you on this sub. You can keep wallowing in your hate and anger towards others or figure out how to adapt. If you're fine with who you are, then that's great. But don't blame others cuz you're unhappy with yourself and are too lazy to change.

That's all from me. It seems we could continue this circle jerk for years. I hope you find happiness and get better.

What does the government supply more to women?

In our society, women have sex and power. Chads and normies do to. But incels pay taxes, despite being underprivileged. Women paying their taxes is just paying for their own privilege. For incels to pay taxes is unfair, since incels needs are not met by this society which extracts that money from them using force.

Ok yes you pay for the police to protect you. And women pay taxes to have the police protect them too. Next.

I'm pretty sure that incels pay taxes which go to the entire police budget. I think you're being really dishonest right here.

I don't force incels to help women.

The state does, by forcing incels to pay taxes.

You can decide to do that. But when you pay for a police force to protect you, don't complain that a woman pays for the same service

No, the taxes incels pay goes to the salary and equipment of every policeman out there, regardless of who they help.

Since the amount of taxes incels and women pay is equal, but the way they are treated by society is not, how can you deny incels are disadvantaged?

Women aren't entitled to your help. You don't help women. That has been made clear by your own words. But you then complain that women won't be with you. If you want something you either accept you can't have it, or figure out how to get it. In this case it sounds like you want a women for sex. Fine. But you've found women don't want you. That's because you've presented them with yourself and they didn't want it.

How is being threatened with murder not forcing me to help women?

If I'm making a sandwich for someone and it tastes horrible, I'm not going to bitch to them and say they should eat the sandwich. I'm gonna fix the sandwich or give it to someone else who wants it.

That's a horrible analogy. First of all, incels don't make sandwiches, they are born that way(i.e they are the sandwich). Second of all, not eating the sandwich doesn't cause any harm to the sandwich. Third of all, the sandwich cannot look out for the best interests of the consumer, so the consumer has no obligation to help out the sandwich.

Since that analogy sucks, let's make a better one. A better analogy would be if women were giving away sandwiches to everyone except incels, despite the fact that incels were forced to pay for the ingredients, and are forced to help them if anything happens the the sandwiches.

Regarding your last comment: that's how most people see you. You feel you are entitled to things that your not and refuse to look at yourself or fix things. It must be everyone else's fault seems to be the Mindset of most of you on this sub. You can keep wallowing in your hate and anger towards others or figure out how to adapt. If you're fine with who you are, then that's great. But don't blame others cuz you're unhappy with yourself and are too lazy to change.

Why are women entitled to my help?

That's all from me. It seems we could continue this circle jerk for years. I hope you find happiness and get better.

Thanks buddy.

Normie here, yes society does place an emphasis on beauty and it’s a hard truth to accept. Regardless of this, if you attempt to make changes in your appearance you will see yourself become more confident and outgoing to others as well as yourself. Yes, it’s hard and it can be challenging but it is achievable. Personally speaking, growing up I was always a 4/10 in looks. I had greasy long hair down to my shoulders, wire-frame glasses, baggy oversized ugly blue jeans, and shirts that I bought from Target or Old Navy that I wore just as long as they fit me. I was also overweight by 20 lbs. Nobody wanted me and I blamed myself and others around me. I decided to change myself and lost a bunch of weight, changed my wardrobe completely, got my whole arm tattooed (when I was finally legal to and worked hard enough to afford it), pierced my septum, changed my glasses frames, and cut my hair way shorter. I also kept up with hygiene daily. People saw how confident I started becoming and found THAT the most attractive as stupid as that sounds. But it’s true, when people see you working on yourself, that is what is truly attractive. I’m bi and since I changed my whole appearance, i’ve been hit on by so many people and now even have a girlfriend that i’ve been with for more than two months now.

Tl;dr: it’s possible to bypass/overcome everything you mentioned, it may be harder or easier than others but people will find you attractive when you work on yourself so focus on that first. It is achievable.

If these basic things were all you needed to do for girls to like you, then your looks were fine. Your problems were nowhere close to the incel situation.

It seems to be partially personality based. I understand being put down based on looks, and I have flaws that can still be seen in my appearance. My mouth is not straight and crooks a little bit up to the right, my teeth are crooked because I never got braces, my right eye is off a tiny bit from my left eye, and my jawline symmetrically is off a bit as well. Escape this mentality and then work on yourself and you will see improvements in your life. Maybe I never was in as worse off of a situation compared to you guys in this group, i’m not living your lives. But a big BIG factor that plays into this is personality and how you introduce yourselves to others.

Preach bruh, I realte so much to this. Still have stuff on my face I'm not really confident about (my right eye is a bit lower that my right, my skull is a bit deformed due to an injury while I was young, my nose is ugly big, teeth crooked and never got braces) but in the end its all about attitude. Used to be overweight as well, but ever since i got into sports and started working out, seeing my body change that fast was such a huge confidence boost, changed my outlook on stuff.

Okay I know I'm gonna sound cheesy but if all of your self improvement attempts revolve around getting laid, and that's the only thing you are constantly thinking about you're gonna get nowhere. You (and all incels, this is not an attack or anything) need to realise that society is much more complicated, and its not only the sexual department you are failing in. Have you ever seen a guy who is succesful in every other aspect of their life (social, wealthy, intelligent, confident, charismatic, looks after their appearance etc) but cant get laid? You should start by improving everything else about you and learn how to love yourself (i told ya i'd be cheesy lel) before you expect anyone else to love you. This is coming from a legit ex-incel (i was not just unable to get girls, had and still have remnants of severe social anxiety and was unable to socialise whatsoever, mainly due to years of being bullied and me being overweight) Also regarding "looks" pretty much anything on your appearance can be changed with enough willpower, unless we are talking about face deformities (even that can be changed with enough money and a good plastic surgeon), but even then supplemented by a nice body (and great hygiene ofc), great personality etc. you can do great. Coming from a martial arts background such stuff (cauliflower ear, broken facebones, misformed skulls, injured/assymetric eyes and much more) are a norm in my close circle, and yet all of us manage to be successful in the ladies department, in varying degrees. If you want to change the situation you are currently in, there is literally (and I mean it) LITERALLY nothing stopping ya.

TL; DR: There is literally nothing stopping you from shitting the black/red pill back out and start improving yourself, girls will come naturally.

I'm successful in other areas of life. I have friends, I have a job, I am confident. Now then. Why don't girls come naturally to me?

girls will come naturally.

shut up

You are not providing anything to the conversation man :/ as to the girls will come naturally thing, i still support it is so. I dunno your age, but after their midtwenties, girls become mostly open minded about the whole dating thing, and if you are not a creep, have an okay personality and basic hygiene level you should be able to score dates with most single women you approach that are interested.

All I said was that incels already know basic hygiene and health.

I'm not an incel and I don't need any advice from you.

Regardless of this, if you attempt to make changes in your appearance you will see yourself become more confident and outgoing to others as well as yourself.

This isn't always the case. I used to be pretty damn ugly in high school, but over time I got a better haircut, got better clothes, got my acne taken care of, and started working out. Didn't help my confidence. Oh, and my hair is falling out at the ripe age of 19, so pretty much all of the good work I did is getting erased.

19? fucking noob. try 15

If you're really not misogynistic or violent, find a different community to associate with (fa for instance)

Anybody who talks about violence against women can just be a psyop who is making it up. and all misogyny is is a passive negative opinion of women and it's none of your fucking business whether someone hates women.

They are bluepilled on looks so why would I do that.

fuck off cuck

fuck off cuck

this is why people do not like you

Like it or not, mostly bc of IT and some prominent incels, you guys don't really have a good reputation. If you don't want to have those associations of misogyny and violence, then you should either leave or rebrand

Because we are actually having sex and with girls who absolutely love us.

has sex

feels love

yet posts on a subreddit full of rejects

For the last time, waifus are not real girl friends and sex with a pillow doesn't count as real sex anon.

First of all. no you aren't, second of all, hew does that disprove anything?

You were a virgin three months ago bud, chill.

Betta Dan u mudafuka! Haha ;)

Not normie here.

In short, everything you said is kinda true, but it is not the whole truth.

Is it so hard to believe that some people are just not attractive enough to be respected as a normal person would?

Nope, it isn't, but is usually done by some assholes, is not like evryone will do it. Specially as people grow up this becomes less frequent.

Is it so hard to believe that society prefers attractive people?

Is it so hard to believe that you could be rejected because you aren't attractive enough?

Is it so hard to believe that attractive people are perceived to have better personalities than ugly people?

Nope it isn't. It's true to be honest.

How can you, with such conviction, honestly say that a lifetime of rejection is done so by ourselves?

Not gonna say what happened in the past was your fault, it's hard to do something else when you a one trick pony. But most of ya ain't fucking deformed, most of ya with some hard work might get what you want, so from this point it might be.

I've been yelled at and abused by my father so many times for not being popular and outgoing and social like all the other kids. Can't I just live my life, why aren't borderline deformed people like me not allowed to be treated as human?

Your dad has issues. Simple as that.

Is it so bad that we just want someone to treat us normal person? All the people who talk about raping women are just copers, we just want to be normal people with a partner who would at least respect us.

Unfortunately lots of people are going to judge you as a whole. Don't let them get to you. Many of them feel like heroes, thinking they are right, and they have the privilege of not having to investigate the facts before they attack someone, fuck, most of them ain't qualified to deliver justice at all. Pieces of shit they are.

And sometimes the attacks aren't towards people like you, you just feel included because they use the name incels.

About your actual question, no it is not bad, but now let me ask you another question, why can't you? Why can't you consider yourselves normal human beings?

Oh, I totally forgot to add the last part:

About your second to fourth questions: Yes it's true, "Chad" might get sex by just saying: "Me... You... Sex...Now..." not from all girls, though. Y'all might not be able to get the same, but it doesn't mean that personalities don't matter, or that all is lost, You are required something else, you are required to be a nice interesting person. Is it fair? hell no, but it is what it is.

Stop trying to "convince" normies with the blackpill. It doesn't matter if they recognize the truth because our positions are completely irreconcilable. There is no benefit for normies and especially women admitting to the blackpill, it would be detrimental to their own self-interest. Telling women about how socially advantaged they are isn't going to make them start wanting to fuck ugly mentally damaged male virgins. Telling a rich billionaire kid how privileged he is isn't going to make him donate his family fortune to starving Africans. No one wants to relinquish the advantages they can get in this unfair shithole of a world.

Yup. It’s quite pointless to convert anyone except incels in denial

As a female who calls things “lit”, lemme answer this for you.

Nobody is not going to deny that a fat ugly unhygienic dumb loser is NOT hot.

But these men forget that they can’t love anyone else until they love themselves. Instead of trying to better themselves, they drown themselves in “no girl would ever love me” or “all women are emotionless whores” because its the easy way out. They dont want to grow a thick skin and go to the gym and shed the weight. They dont want to approach that cute girl at the supermarket in fear of rejection. They just want to be perceived as the victim and cry like a little baby and guess what? They’re getting exactly what they’re giving to the world. Nothing.

You guys already have nothing to lose and you only live once so make the most of your pathetic lives like the rest of us.

Also, theres a crooked hen for every crooked cock. (Good saying that stuck with me)

But why should a fat ugly man love himself? If he does that, then society will shit on him.

I can see the femoid and Norman response already:

lmao 😂 look at this ni🅱️🅱️a thinking he’s hot shit. Check your height bro. 😂👌👌 check your face 😂😂😂

Next. There’s no way to better your face. (Fatcel=volcel).

You’re under the assumption that we’re all fat lol. Most of us aren’t. I’m a skinny short high inhibition “nerdy” white guy.

Also, I like how you imply that men need to work out in the gym, personalitymaxx, NTmaxx, etc.

Why is it that only men are told to “toughen up” and accept that they’re gonna get rejected a billion times? Why is it that only men need to self improve to have a chance? Women are never told any of this bullshit. Women are told that the opposite in fact (don’t settle, don’t date lower than you possibly can, etc.) For Men, it’s a numbers game. For women, it’s a “find the best one who is begging for you” game. That’s hypergamy.

crooked hen for every crooked cock

Except there isn’t. There aren’t any female incels. There’s no female version of “take a shower lift weights bro do this do that become a god at manipulating her into liking you do this do that yeaaa brooo”.

There isn’t.

For women, here’s your dating tip:

Exist.

Done. If you want to looksmaxx as a female, you don’t even need to do invasive shit like men do (gymcelling and roidcelling are time consuming, costly, and potentially dangerous). You just need makeup and to stop stuffing your face with Big Macs. Literally that’s it. A woman who sits on her ass 14 hours a day but doesn’t overeat and knows how to put on makeup will get the attention go thousands of orbiters. If i do the same, I’m an incel.

you killed that shit

I'm an ugly ass nigga like you probably are. I usually get laid every day or 2 depending on my work schedule. You wanna know the key? First off respect yourself. Second off, lose the bitch attitude because bitch does not attract bitch. Thirdly, the only person at fault for your celibacy is you. Quit blaming society and accept that you're a shitty person. Pretty much this whole sub is just shitty people with shitty personalities. If you want to get some pussy, act like you actually got your shit together, grow a couple hairs on them nuts, and get out your room. Go do shit. Don't even worry about women. Go find a hobby that puts you around women and just start talking to people. Once you actually gain social skills and an actual personality, the females start to notice. Soon you won't even have to put in effort. Used to be in your shoes back in high school. Sure, it took a couple years, but im in a better spot now juggling 4 hoes at the same time, and I have a big ass nose, a massive overbite, and nonexistent lips. I know damn well you can do it too. Hell, ill go to a girls house with my pc, then smoke a blunt, fuck, and play Fallout all night. I'm sort of the nerdy type. I like to write code and mod games. I just have different hobbies and skills. Diversify yourself.

you are not ugly. stop lying.

Go check my r/amisexy post. The only dude that posted told me I look like a drug addict.

lmao, you're trolling love you

Lol k

I dont think anyone is denying anything you just said.

You know that is bullshit. There is no way you can say that there aren't people denying those claims.

Give some proof then.

1. Go to r/short
2. Find a post where a guy is venting about his struggles dating due to his short stature
3. Find someone with pink flair in the comments
4. Pretty high chance they will blame it on his personality

Here's a sneak peek of /r/short using the top posts of the year!

#1: The saddest thing I've ever read | 102 comments
#2: Sometimes you've gotta have some fun with it | 128 comments
#3: The real reason women don't like guys under 6 feet

^{I'm a bot, beep boop | Downvote to remove | Contact me | Info | Opt-out}

I love how they use personality as a scapegoat but when you ask them why misogynists, narcissists, pedos, can all get into relationships they don't have a response.

Look at my comment at the top of this post.

I have two reasons.

I've done extensive research into the incels, MGTOW, RedPill, etc etc

Is it so hard to believe that some people are just not attractive enough to be respected as a normal person would?

You'll never know until you try for me. I was an over weight sad as fuck 27 year old. No girls looked at me. Until I decide to make a change

Is it so hard to believe that society prefers attractive people?

You are 100% correct. Now that said I promise you there's things that everyone can do to make themselves more attractive. For me it was cutting 120 lb and stop dressing in black all the fucking time.

Is it so hard to believe that you could be rejected because you aren't attractive enough?

If you put yourself in front of enough NO's you are bound to find a yes. This is called the law of averages. Doing things to make yourself appear more attractive will increase your odds.

Is it so hard to believe that attractive people are perceived to have better personalities than ugly people?

For me I had a shit antisocial personality. I dressed in black and I was a piece of human shit to everyone I encounter. Until that is I decided to change it.

How can you, with such conviction, honestly say that a lifetime of rejection is done so by ourselves?

If you think you can or you think you can't either way you're correct

This was my wallpaper for a year-and-a-half while I transformed my body.

Well first I would say reject the tribe and become your own. Second off no one is normal only people you do not know very well are normal.

We all have our demons are skeletons and God knows what else.

That all sounds like some stuff from a self-help gurus infomercial to sell his new book.

Let's say it is. If it works does it matter where it came from?

You've done "extensive research"... yet you didn't really address any of his points.

Did you read my comment and see where I responded to almost every one of his points?

Yes, and they were all terribly made points.

Not a rebuttal.

Yours wasn't, correct.

Not a rebuttal.

Yours wasn't, correct.

Not a valid argument.

Godot is the murderer at the end of Phoenix Wright, Trials and Tribulations.

I have two reasons.

?? What does that have to do with OPs post?

[deleted]

did he turn to a woman?

As a "Mgtow" myself (wouldn't call myself one but I live the "lifestyle") I'm curious to know what kind of "research" you have been conducting and what have you learned? Most of your counter points to OP so far have been assumptions.

Just been subscribing to various subreddit and youtube channels.

My question had two parts. What have you learned?

LOL ''research''

What are you suggesting then?

just trollin and bullying

Someone doesn't know what trolling and bullying is.

We're not fat you dumbfuck. There's no change to be made about your face or height.

I was fat you dumbfuck. Real fat real gross had no idea how to look presentable.

I don't give a shit. You were a fat neckbeard. Incels are ugly by genetics (bad face and height)

You should give a shit!

You can always improve.

No, you can't. There's no way to improve height or face. You were fat, you weren't naturally ugly.

I'm still ugly in the face buddy. No matter what.

I don't see where the "extensive research" part comes into this. You are making vast assumptions about the amount of effort people have put into bettering themselves. There are examples like u/trail22 who is a virgin despite being far far more successful in building accomplishments than people like you.

Well good for him I hope he becomes a billionaire and achieves whatever he seeks.

Gaaaaayyyyyy

I can hear that seal!

[removed]

It's a matter of SCIENCE, not belief. Normies have their own bullshit religion.

[deleted]

If your dad is being abusive because you're shy/awkward/whatever, or even for any reason, then he's a real piece of shit, pretty much objectively a dogshit human being and probably further contributes to your problems involving interacting with people.

I don't think anyone denies that society prefers attractive people, or that people are rejected because someone finds them ugly (if people do deny this, they are 100% retarded).

I don't think people are respected less for being ugly, but IDK. Definitely people who choose to be ugly, like fat people, unhygienic people, stinky people, etc. but all of that is their choice. maybe made fun of, but a lot of people are made fun of for a lot of things.

Height too tho, I know a lot of guys who have been treated poorly for being short and you see it as totally accepted in the media. so there's probably a fair amount of truth here.

IDK - a few of the pics I've seen of some of you guys you really don't look bad at all, I'm sure some do just look unfortunate, and while it can't be helped in that case, you pretty much objectively look better than the average American, Aussie, or brit just by not being overweight, even if your face looks like a broken club foot or something. Nobody wants to fuck fat rolls except for people w/ a fatty fetish, and while I'm not saying I think you're all fat... if you aren't, you have a better shot than any fatty should at getting a girl, and I see plenty of fat fellas with girlfriends.

anyway, aside from that, you've heard all the "personality matters" shit, you either know about it and don't care/believe it or know and don't feel your personality is good enough at this point, and there's nothing I can do to change that opinion or make you "better" so there's no point to me repeating any of that to you.

I definitely don't see incels as freaks, just the ones who really buy into the whole "women are evil" and "women owe me companionship" kind of mindsets. seriously, just try making friends with girls or something, if they end up wanting to bang then that's cool, but most importantly just love and treat them the way you'd love and treat any of your dude friends. if they're not into you, then they're just not into you, but they really are no different from guys except you're attracted to them. You wouldn't EXPECT any guy to be your friend or owe you anything (i hope) so don't expect it from girls either.

bit rambly, idk if any of you even care, just know that at least in my opinion you deserve love, or at least to be treated kindly by others, as long as you treat others with kindness, even if you (maybe) have some negative viewpoints, even if you aren't always perfect, even if you look gross (even if by choice). people won't always treat you with kindness, but try to recognize whether they're just shitty people, maybe you're being a jerk/doing something wrong, or maybe both. I try to recognize when I do shitty things, and consider if somebody is treating me like shit because I did something to set them off, or if they're just in a shit mood / are a shit person. I can't always recognize my own flaws or mistakes though, I don't really think anyone can when it comes to your own personality.

https://imgur.com/a/X75Jl

not sure i understand the point of this, opinions are opinions. i 100% feel this way about fat people, male and female, can't fathom how it's attractive to anyone (and honestly, I don't think most people can). a fatty is an instant 1/10 lookswise to me and definitely super low on the personality scale since it shows an addictive personality and any lack of self-care or effort.

but, there are still people who want to bang fatties. I'm sure you're higher on the totem pole than a fatty.

https://imgur.com/a/X75Jl

Can somewhat relate to this. Never really had anything to do with a chubby girl before. They are not my type although to me the face is more important than the body so I have no problem making an exception if she is beautiful. And there are some very pretty ones out there. Matched with such a girl on tinder a a bit more than a week ago. She asked for my number first so we can move to viber. As we got to know each other, first she started sending funny memes with cats about what girlfriends do in whatever situations. Then, she let is slip that she is a pretty jealous person and when it became clear that my work involves being around plenty of women, she joked about how she will have to drain my balls 5 times a day so I won't be tempted. These things are a bit of red flags to me at least. In addition, pretty much all she does is work 8-10 hours a day and then go home - another turn off. Two days ago we started sexting and I mean really hard stuff, again it was she who steered the convo in that direction but I decided to play along. Long story short, yes, she is clingy and addictive (Did I mention a regular "good morning" every day at 09:10 a.m.?). Shame, because her face is so pretty and dirty at the same time but I guess I will have to bail out.

Imagine being privileged enough and bring so certain of being able to score someone else that you can just reject women who want to cling to you.

God damn, nigga. I wish I had a fraction of your looks, luck or game.

It's dumb

Okay ill give it to you about the look of incels since yes it varies but I was trying to portray the “ultimate incel” for the sake of argument

What do you mean really have to lose? Honestly it mind boggles me all the hoops you guys jump just to avoid the main problem.

Yeah, life gave it to you hard, but it’s what you make out of it. Im not going to settle for someone who cant find their own value out of sympathy and why should I? Self love is something you have to teach yourself cause no matter how many people tell me otherwise, im only going to truly love myself.

And OH MY GOD why do you guys act like women are a different species? Theres BILLIONS of us, so many chances that if you play your cards right you might just get a girl. But hey, most of these guys act like hiding in a dark mindset will get them far in this short life and hell if i was an ugly mf I would do the most i could and try to get lucky cause at least i could say i tried.

Self love is something you have to teach yourself

Does masturbation count as "self love"? If so, i really do love myself and i'm still a lonely virgin loser.

You’re your worst critic.

Just remember that if you truly are a sad lonely virgin loser, what the hell do you have to lose my friend?

Nothing.

But i already know if i try it's going to end up being pointless anyway, so really i'm just running in circles.

It's not like i haven't tried either, I've lowered my standards to pitiful levels and still get rejected by land whales at university.

Oh god dont go for people who already show they hate themselves because it wont get you far.

God why cant one of you sad little cunt prove me wrong? Have some merit and take control of your life than furthering my argument.

Oh god dont go for people who already show they hate themselves because it wont get you far

Lol so when i lower my standards i'm told to stop going for girls that hate themselves. When i increase my standards i'm told to stop going for girls that are out of my league.

JFL, damned if i do, damned if i don't. Thanks for proving why it's completely pointless to bother with this shit.

If the Blackpill was simply "looks play a big part in your life and how succesful you are with women" then I would say sure, that's pretty obvious.

But apparently women are femoids who only want chad, all normies are getting cucked by tyrone, noone under 5ft 8 ever got laid and being an ethnic minority is a death sentence.

When the vast majority of your posters are spouting hyperbolic nonsense then it becomes almost impossible to discern what you are even trying to say.

Then you can sprinkle on the casually excepted violence towards women and cherry picking of anecdotal evidence to support cases as well.

Abusive man gets married? Personality is a myth. Friendly below average looking man gets married? He must be rich or getting cucked. Personality is a myth.

And don't even claim its all memes etc.. you know for for the majority of people its not.

On top of it all it seems that so many people here are not even ugly. They carry one or two flaws, a huge case of body dysmorphia, and completely misguided notions about women. This isn't a haven for exceptionally ugly or abused people. Its just a bunch of average blokes who whine alot.

Noones really denying looks matter, but rather challenging your increasingly warped perceptions of reality.

Sorry you couldnt see the potential you hold in yourself. You’re the only one hurten

Seen you edit

This thread is a question for us normies, just delivering the truth bombs. Again, youre the only one hurting from this

I'm pretty sure if you help others who are less fortunate, you'll get respect eventually. Like, if instead of just shoveling snow from your sidewalk you went ahead and did the whole block. Helping elderly folks. Community projects, etc.

It's not a denial that physical appearance matters, rather the knowledge that the toxic mindset of the average 'incel' is like a bottomless pit, the only way you can get out of it is if you change your mindset and take some risks in life, otherwise you'll forever remain in darkness.

I'm hardly what would be considered a 'normie', I'm short, I'm fat, I'm in a wheelchair, but even I understand that the best way you can get into a relationship with someone is through a number of different things.

Firstly, stop feeling sorry for yourselves. There's nothing more unattractive in a person than self-pity.

Get the chip off your shoulder.

Accept you're probably not going to pull a supermodel girl/boyfriend, so stop envisioning that this is what you're entitled to. You're not. You're entitled to nothing.

Opting for video games and engaging in this echo chamber instead of putting yourself out there, is obviously not going to land you with a long term relationship or even a one night stand.

You're the maker of your own destiny, there's plenty of people uglier or worse off than you that are happily married or at the very least get laid once in a while.

Because no woman wants to be with a little bitch that don't respect himself. Also no woman wants to be with a "nice guy". If you're a nice guy, you portray yourself as weak. If you never talk shit to a girl or make fun of her, she looks at you as if you're a bitch. Women aren't super sensitive and don't need to be treated like a goddess all the time. The harder you try to please her, the more desperate and sad you look. I'm an ugly fuck, but I talk shit. I don't look to please the fuck out of the girls I'm with. I look to them and expect them to please me, while respecting them and their needs in the process. You have to be able to be angry and annoyed with her sometimes, or she's gonna think, "Damn, what if I'm getting mugged? My bitch ass pussy of a boyfriend would probably curl up in a ball and cry on the sidewalk." Notice that everything I've talked about here is 100% fixable by YOU. I never once talked about having to look good. Ugly ass people can still be attractive. You can fix your pussy attitude. You can fix your folds of skin protruding over your waistbands. You have to be willing to do something about it. If you sit around and do nothing to fix your bullshit, what the hell are you bitching about? Your unattractiveness is YOUR fault.

Because no woman wants to be with a little bitch that don't respect himself. Also no woman wants to be with a "nice guy". If you're a nice guy, you portray yourself as weak

I non-ironically feel an unpleasant tension around my lungs and an urge to squeeze my fingers into the necks of women when I hear their opinions on men with gentle personalities. I want to be respected and held dear by a female companion and to know that she wants to be beaten and raped by Chad is sickening - literally physically nauseating - when I think about it for more than a few seconds.

It's almost the witching hour and I want the BFG to reach his trumpet through my window and blow me a dream of my childhood, take me back to a time I was ignorant to all of this.

liar

while respecting them and their needs in the process

Yep. Women are people too.

you're fake as fuck

And how is that?

that phrase. doesn't make sense. it doesn't mean anything. it contradicts your previous statements. it falsely asserts that the audience is not respecting women and their needs. but not even in a specific sense, like in the most general sense possible, so much so that it doesn't actually mean anything at all. you're completely and utterly full of shit.

I'm full of shit for letting a female do what she pleases? If a female don't wanna fuck with me that's fine. I move on and find another. Also, the whole incel crowd has a tendency to not respect women.

FEMALE FEMALE FEMALE

fak as fuk

Also, the whole incel crowd has a tendency to not respect women.

JFL

Incels literally criticize women for letting guys hit them, while women say don't worry it's not your fault. He must have been a 145 iq master manipulator who re-read The Game by Neil Strauss 100 times and might have even been trained on the internet. Incels respect women more than they respect themselves.

Then they end up resenting them.

As an unattractive lesbian, I do understand some of your guy's pain. I've been rejected before by beautiful women, and it was obviously because they didn't find me attractive enough. I've been there. I was totally led on.

But here's the difference between me and a lot of you guys on this sub: I was able to move on. Sure, I cried. I felt like shit. But after a little while I was able to pick myself up and try again.

I eventually found a great girlfriend. I've been with her for almost a year now. We just have personalities that fit so well together. We just work. I have such a strong emotional bond with this woman like no one else.

I'm sure you'll ask about sex with her. Well, we are both rather inexperienced but we are figuring stuff out. Unfortunately we have both been super busy for the last 3 months and haven't had sex since then. But it literally doesn't matter because of the bond we have. There more to a relationship then sex. And I'm a strong believer that the only sex worth having is with someone you really love and someone who loves you back. I've has sex before with a guy when I thought I was bi, I just didn't have the same emotional attachment because he was a guy (of course it didn't help I was attracted to him, but there's more to it than that). Sex was a chore. I did it because it made him happy. Now, I go crazy if my girlfriend just hugs me from behind with her hands on my stomach.

You don't want people who will have sex with you only for your looks. That sex isn't worth anything. You want to have sex with the person you love. You need to be selfless and strive to make them feel good rather than just worrying about your own orgasm (there's a study behind this if you want to see it).

Rejection isn't the end of the world. Sex isn't everything. And it is harder to have sex if you aren't as attractive, but not impossible. But think about it: what kind of women are you going after? Are you going after the 7/10's and up? Does that not make you as shallow as the women who are rejecting you? Are you looking for sex or a relationship? Because believe me, sex feels like a waste of time if it's with anyone else other than someone you love.

Answers to expect: “yes that’s all true but it doesn’t matter because you guys deserve to be treated like shit because of your personalities, that’s the real problem.”

You can’t convince people of anything.

I don't think it's so much as denial of the blackpill as it is condemning the toxic hivemind that surges in the incel community.

Blame genetics and natural selection, not those who were born privileged. Nobody owes an incel sex, respect the autonomy of humans instead of expecting that those who have a better genetic lot than you owe you for that. Nobody chose their DNA. Nobody owes you shit.

That said, it's completely fucking uncalled for when IT comes along and makes an effort to degrade and bully incels. That's just being a fucking shit human being.

Nice straw man. People blame genetics and natural selection all the time, only to get downvoted to hell and banned from the subreddit. That’s why braincels even exists in the first place.

Women expect men to treat them with respect and kindness, simply for existing. Men don’t expect other men or women to do this. You only see this entitlement with western women. I’ve been shadowing in a lab for the past several years and there are lots of Chinese lab techs and PIs, many of them women. Never have I heard them bitch or complain about sexism or anything like that. But the white women? All the time. They do the least, but expect everyone to pat them on the back.

Society constantly pampers women, while telling them that men have everything. So when a man says “I was kicked out of a bar because a girl thought I was ugly and creepy” nobody wants to believe him.

Outside of genetics, the issues of rampant generalization that occur in this sub are what normies ridicule. Especially when supporting evidence for argunents often comes from a microcosm with no external validity (e.g. direct observation from a lab isn't applicable as that's not a representative sample of the population).

If a person consistently finds "evidence" to support such a theory without attempting to research conflicting views or facts, then they're just solidifying a perspective, i.e. confirmation bias is real, hence why people have visceral reactions when factual evidence conflicts with their views.

I'm not denying that somebody won't get treated like shit based on looks, I am arguing that not everybody will treat somebody like shit based on looks. And this sub propagates a cycle of hate that encourages the belief that the only reason someone is treated like shit is based on their looks without examining other pieces that could give better context.

You’re not completely wrong, and it’s true that we shouldn’t generalize and say that “all ugly men are going to be treated like shit”. And yes, there are posters on here who say stupid shit that the normalfags at IT eat right up.

But the main principle of this sub is grounded in both scientific research and the experiences of thousands, if not millions. I don’t agree with some of the very extreme opinions on this sub, but I especially don’t agree with normals who try to deny the truth: that ugly men are (almost all of the time) treated like subhumans by women and even other men.

Seriously IT is a bunch of people who are extremely insecure. They're like the people on Niceguys, Cringepics, Cringeanarchy, etc. who feel that bad about themselves they spend their time looking for posts, screenshotting them, and having the community laugh at them. Yeah I posted and agreed with their hive mind, but I was insecure, so I know from personal experience.

Nobody owes you shit Respect the autonomy of humans

So noone owes me shit but i owe everyone respect? Fuck you. Nobody owes anyone shit.

not natural selection, stop using this buzzword. The year is 2018

Do you think an incel has a moral obligation to help a woman being raped?

Its true society does favour attractive people, that's just the way it is. I'm sorry that your dad is an asshole. But I think most of this is about life experience. Not just sexual experience but just general dealing with people. If you're still in high school remember that it's only a very small portion of your life, I had an awful time in high school, I got nothing out of it. But afterwards it was like a massive weight was lifted. If you can, try to surround yourself with as many positive things as possible. I know that might be hard to do but even if it's one small thing after another, it might help. During a day that all the bad, unhappy, frustrating thoughts take a moment to step back and try and see things from a neutral perspective, then maybe take it a step further and try and see from another persons perspective.

Yes to all. Next.

Just been subscribing to various subreddit and youtube channels.

19? fucking noob. try 15

Your life is hard because you're skinny and clothes don't fit you properly. I don't really have a response to that. My BMI is 19.4 and clothes fit me pretty well.

Let me address your over-arching message that being ugly makes life hard. No it doesn't. Being ugly doesn't stop you from getting a job, making friends, picking up a hobby, eating, or doing anything in life actually where appearance is not a major factor. It can only really stop you from getting a relationship, and even then, it very strongly depends on a variety of factors.

How about you do this. Because looks are subjective, even ugly people are attractive to someone. And attractive people are ugly to someone. Therefore, you are not ugly. You are not attractive. You're just you. Your view of yourself and how you view your supposed ugliness will dissuade people from associating with you more than your actual appearances will.

Most people cannot maintain that level of cognitive dissonance

... Sorry, what? Couldn't you think of an actual answer?

You're really angry, people can sense that kind of thing

But they can't sense when Chad's a wife beating asshole teehee

And no, let me tell you this, they do look at me. I've accidentally made eye contact with one of the glarers twice - her and her group of Stacy friends were looking straight at me like my mere existence offended their sensibilities. It's hard to believe, because as a woman you have never and will never get a look nearly as hateful and poisonous.

Whenever I talk to a woman I'm attracted to just because I'm attracted to her I don't expect to be turned down, I just don't expect anything to happen. Since that's usually what happens.

I don't even know any of their damned names. I have never interacted with them, nor will I ever. I deliberately sit on the other side of the room to them. In that particular class, I only speak up when directly addressed.

Expecting nothing to happen is functionally the same as being turned down in that scenario.

But if I expect something to happen I'm an entitled piece of shit? I really cannot win.

Yup. It’s quite pointless to convert anyone except incels in denial

https://imgur.com/a/X75Jl

you are not ugly. stop lying.

But you asking that question implies that. You think Indians and Asians are subhumans. You are racist.

What does the government supply more to women?

Ok yes you pay for the police to protect you. And women pay taxes to have the police protect them too. Next.

I don't force incels to help women. You can decide to do that. But when you pay for a police force to protect you, don't complain that a woman pays for the same service

Women aren't entitled to your help. You don't help women. That has been made clear by your own words. But you then complain that women won't be with you. If you want something you either accept you can't have it, or figure out how to get it. In this case it sounds like you want a women for sex. Fine. But you've found women don't want you. That's because you've presented them with yourself and they didn't want it.

If I'm making a sandwich for someone and it tastes horrible, I'm not going to bitch to them and say they should eat the sandwich. I'm gonna fix the sandwich or give it to someone else who wants it.

Regarding your last comment: that's how most people see you. You feel you are entitled to things that your not and refuse to look at yourself or fix things. It must be everyone else's fault seems to be the Mindset of most of you on this sub. You can keep wallowing in your hate and anger towards others or figure out how to adapt. If you're fine with who you are, then that's great. But don't blame others cuz you're unhappy with yourself and are too lazy to change.

That's all from me. It seems we could continue this circle jerk for years. I hope you find happiness and get better.