It doesn't matter unless you're Chad. Sub8s are treated the same all around. A femoid ghosted me even though she told me that I was attractive. She was close to a 4 and I'm close to a 6.
You guys are always throwing around huge blanket statements, such as "all women" would do this or that. This here, saying it is literally impossible to "match" as a 6? That's asinine. 6, as I just said in my other comment, is literally above average. It's stupid to think that a 6 could never get a date. Hell, I've dated guys that I'm sure were lower than a 6 on this rating scale, so that alone means it isn't literally impossible. It's so frustrating to try and help you to understand that this warped way of thinking really isn't true.
How do you figure? Did I say one thing in my comment about "improve yourself impossibly to get girls"? No. I mentioned that I've dated guys who were definitely less than a 6 on your stupid scale. Your link has nothing to do with what I said.
What are you talking about? I read that post before you linked me to it, and it's just a sad joke, ha, ha, right, the only way a 5'2 Indian guy to get a date is to turn into a tall blond guy? Har, har. It's not funny, and it's not true. I don't know what you mean by a 6/10 can't match, but can date. What does that even mean?
It’s true though. I’ve used a pic on tinder on which I looked average and I got four matches in 1100 swipes. Now it’s up to you to to decide whether I’m uglier than I think I am or that even average guys have it extremely hard in the online dating world.
What is true, that it's "literally impossible" to get a date if your looks are less than a "6"? Because that's what my comment was, was that I've dated guys who were less than a 6. However, I've never online dated, and would personally recommend trying to meet people in person as it's easier to get to know someone, plus harder for them to reject you. Online it's as easy as not replying to a message or whatever, but in person it's more difficult so they'd be more likely to get to know you.
However, my guess is that if you are pretty average looking and very few people are matching up with you, it's probably something else to do with your profile. What do you have written there? Because if it's some pity-evoking profile, bingo, there's your problem. Or if you read it and it oozes negativity like so many posts here, again, bingo. My guess is that it has very little to do with your picture.
I don't even think I have any like super typically attractive friends, they are all pretty normal looking, but they're all fun to be around and most are musically inclined (which has always been my main criterion for being interested in a guy, our musical interests lining up), some are closer to the ugly end of the scale than the "Chad" end, and many of them are short and/or have acne problems, but they all have/have had girlfriends. Yeah, maybe it was harder in high school because there weren't as many options there are there are in the real world, but yeah, even my chubbiest and shortest friends have girlfriends now. Could you explain that to me?
What is true, that it's "literally impossible" to get a date if your looks are less than a "6"? Because that's what my comment was, was that I've dated guys who were less than a 6. However, I've never online dated, and would personally recommend trying to meet people in person as it's easier to get to know someone, plus harder for them to reject you. Online it's as easy as not replying to a message or whatever, but in person it's more difficult so they'd be more likely to get to know you.
I’ve specified that in online dating that it’s extremely hard for average looking guys. I agree that in real life you have better chances but I’ve gotten only rejections irl too.
However, my guess is that if you are pretty average looking and very few people are matching up with you, it's probably something else to do with your profile. What do you have written there? Because if it's some pity-evoking profile, bingo, there's your problem. Or if you read it and it oozes negativity like so many posts here, again, bingo. My guess is that it has very little to do with your picture.
I can only look average in extremely good pictures. No, I haven’t written any pity-evoking or something that oozes negativity. I don’t know why you always think of the worst of incels. Bio doesn’t matter, I’ve got a lot of proof for this.
I don't even think I have any like super typically attractive friends, they are all pretty normal looking, but they're all fun to be around and most are musically inclined (which has always been my main criterion for being interested in a guy, our musical interests lining up), some are closer to the ugly end of the scale than the "Chad" end, and many of them are short and/or have acne problems, but they all have/have had girlfriends. Yeah, maybe it was harder in high school because there weren't as many options there are there are in the real world, but yeah, even my chubbiest and shortest friends have girlfriends now. Could you explain that to me?
Like you said they are pretty normal looking. Consider the below average looking guys lucky. I have a hard time imaging what you / an average female thinks an average guy looks like.
Lol, I'm not assuming the worst of Incels by asking about your bio. I just figure that since in every single comment reply I've gotten from you your negativity is seeping through, so I am surprised that you're able to mask that in a bio about yourself.
Believe it or not, I've met many, many guys in my life, and you seriously think I don't know what an average man looks like? I'm aware of looks, even if I don't think they're half as important as you seem to think they are. I don't think that the "below average" guys that I'm friends with are especially lucky when it comes to dating. I think that the reason I'm friends with them is the same reason they get girlfriends - they are fun to be around, and fun to talk to. I say that my friends are all pretty normal looking because even if they're not very physically attractive I don't think of them as ugly, because they're not ugly people inside. In my life I've probably had more male friends than female, so I definitely feel confident in telling you I know what an average/below average man looks like. My only curiosity though, is what you think an average man looks like, and who in the world is above an 8 with these standards?
I’m rating attractiveness based on a bell curve. Most people, about 70%, are average looking, or every so slightly below or ever so slight above. This would mean they are a 4-6/10. An 8/10 would be an actual model with hundred thousands followers on social media. An 8/10 would fall into the top 10% percentage of attractiveness. I think this sounds fairly logical.
Now let’s take a look how males on OkCupid rated female attractiveness.
Our chart shows how men have rated women, on a scale from 0 to 5. The curve is symmetric and surprisingly charitable: a woman is as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, and the majority of women have been rated about “medium.” The chart looks normalized, even though it’s just the unfiltered opinions of our male users.
Let’s take a look how females on OkCupid rated male attractiveness.
As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.
Like I said I have a hard time imagining what an average female thinks how an average guy looks like. People who spend their whole day on social media looking at people who get paid to look good are likely to have a skewed perception of reality.
Ah, an online dating site graph. Online dating, which I've mentioned several times (not sure if to you, I'm replying to a ton of comments right now) is a problem. Maybe you could go out on the street and ask women who haven't been conditioned with this fast-paced looking-at-pictures-first type of dating, because I think that's pretty stupid that women in this survey said that only 20% of guys are better-than average. May I ask you how so many men in the world get married, or even date, if women only like 20% of them? It's not like 80% of men are single.
And if you're talking about me again and doubting that I know what an average guy looks like, that's stupid. You think I get my information from looking at guys who get paid to look good, on social media much less??? Lol, as if. I don't go on Instagram (although I hear there are models there. How stupid) or Facebook or anywhere else you might think that I'm looking at pictures of men wearing make-up and having photo-shopped faces and abs. That's asinine. I just happen to have life experience and have met many men in my life, so I'm quite positive I have a realistic grasp of what "average" is. Likely much more realistic than yours, in fact.
Ah, an online dating site graph. Online dating, which I've mentioned several times (not sure if to you, I'm replying to a ton of comments right now) is a problem. Maybe you could go out on the street and ask women who haven't been conditioned with this fast-paced looking-at-pictures-first type of dating, because I think that's pretty stupid that women in this survey said that only 20% of guys are better-than average.
I’d say the creditability of that study is pretty high because irl people would fear social repercussions for expressing their true feeling, i.e. calling someone ugly if they were shown pictures. Most people have tried out online dating and it’s not like these people only exist on the internet or only use online dating as their only way of meeting new people. It might be surprising to you but in general females seem to make up slightly more than half the user base for online dating apps.
May I ask you how so many men in the world get married, or even date, if women only like 20% of them? It's not like 80% of men are single.
Women settle for these guys once they understand that they can not obtain what they actually crave. I wonder how many people, especially females, think of other people when they are having sex with their partner.
And if you're talking about me again and doubting that I know what an average guy looks like, that's stupid. You think I get my information from looking at guys who get paid to look good, on social media much less??? Lol, as if. I don't go on Instagram (although I hear there are models there. How stupid) or Facebook or anywhere else you might think that I'm looking at pictures of men wearing make-up and having photo-shopped faces and abs. That's asinine. I just happen to have life experience and have met many men in my life, so I'm quite positive I have a realistic grasp of what "average" is. Likely much more realistic than yours, in fact.
I kept the paragraph of my last reply very general and didn’t mean you specifically. Most people have social media outlets. I’ve already explained how attractiveness should be rated and I don’t understand why you’d think that I don’t know what an average guy looks like. I don’t really have any social media of my own if you don’t count things like reddit, twitch and YouTube, the latter being slightly controversial.
I apologize, I thought you meant me specifically and I'm like, where are you getting this nonsense data? I was just saying that if you didn't think I knew what the average guy looks like, I was saying that you must not either.
I guess a lot of the problem here is that you're focusing on women who really shouldn't be focused on. You're wasting your energy thinking about women who "settle" rather than finding love. Yeah, maybe when a woman is nearing the end of her 30's she might feel worried and make a rash decision about a man to marry. This does not mean it's common practice, though. Same with worrying that women think about other men during sex - what is the point in worrying about this? I personally never have, but I'm sure some women do. But some men do, too. It's fantasy. It's just like when you masturbate to watching porn - you close your eyes and think about the woman you just watched. I'm sure my partner has done that before when he's closed his eyes during sex, remembering a part of a porno he watched? Honestly, so what? It's not hurting anyone.
And of course I'm not surprised that women make up about half of the online dating world. Women make up 50% of the population of the planet, it only makes sense that they'd make up 50% of the online dating world. Just other than a few people off the top of my head, I can't think of many that I know who do. I can't think of many men who do either, though. But I know it's obviously a thing.
I guess a lot of the problem here is that you're focusing on women who really shouldn't be focused on. You're wasting your energy thinking about women who "settle" rather than finding love. Yeah, maybe when a woman is nearing the end of her 30's she might feel worried and make a rash decision about a man to marry. This does not mean it's common practice, though.
Yes, it’s becoming more and more common that women who are in their late 20s / early 30s just search for men to settle with after they rode the cock carousel. I have no desire to become a beta provider for some whore. What’s the point of having a relationship if your partner doesn’t think that you are the most beautiful person? I don’t want to be settled for.
Same with worrying that women think about other men during sex - what is the point in worrying about this? I personally never have, but I'm sure some women do. But some men do, too. It's fantasy. It's just like when you masturbate to watching porn - you close your eyes and think about the woman you just watched. I'm sure my partner has done that before when he's closed his eyes during sex, remembering a part of a porno he watched? Honestly, so what? It's not hurting anyone.
It's funny, I'm having a discussion right now in /r/relationship_advice about whether or not porn is considered cheating. In my books, it's not. If a man (or woman) wants more sex than their partner in the relationship, masturbation is pretty normal to deal with this. And a lot of people watch porn to masturbate. Whatever. I'm just saying not to focus on the fact that a girl might be thinking about someone else during sex. Chances are she's not, but why worry about what she may or may not be thinking? It's just going to tear you up.
How do you know that it's becoming common practice for women to "search for men to settle with after they rode the cock carousel"? Many of the women I know just date. They meet guys that they like, through mutual friends or work or social groups, they date them, and if it doesn't work out, they survive just fine on their own for a while (not riding the "cock carousel"), and eventually end up dating someone else. They don't focus their entire life around their sexuality - they do things that make them happy like traveling or hobbies or whatever, and if they meet someone along the way? Great. If not, it's not the end of the world. There isn't a time-limit for when you must "settle down". People can still date no matter what age.
In my books, it's not. If a man (or woman) wants more sex than their partner in the relationship, masturbation is pretty normal to deal with this. And a lot of people watch porn to masturbate.
Masturbation is fine if one wants more sex than the other one but you don't need to watch porn to masturbate.
Many of the women I know just date. They meet guys that they like, through mutual friends or work or social groups, they date them, and if it doesn't work out, they survive just fine on their own for a while (not riding the "cock carousel"), and eventually end up dating someone else.
If a woman has had more than two sexual partners she's worthless. Two is the maximum amount of partners that's still acceptable for me if you plan to have marriage one day.
They don't focus their entire life around their sexuality - they do things that make them happy like traveling or hobbies or whatever, and if they meet someone along the way? Great. If not, it's not the end of the world.
No doubt that this works great for normies but this would be considered bad advice for incels. Another thing is that men are the ones to do the approaching, so women can just live their life without worrying about finding a partner.
There isn't a time-limit for when you must "settle down". People can still date no matter what age.
Yea, most people feel the need to settle down in their 30s. Dating above 30 is extremely hard from what I've read.
I agree that porn is not needed for masturbating, but some people like to watch it and I don't think that makes them bad people. People are allowed to have preferences.
And, wow. Based on your criteria for finding a girlfriend, it sounds like you never will (and it's because of your own standards). I feel like finding a girl who's had sex with two or less partners is going to be difficult, unless you're still in high school. Many, if not most, women in their 20s have had at least 2 partners already. I must ask though - how do you intend do find this out anyways? If you ask a girl that you're just starting to date how many partners she's had, that might scare her off. Not to mention if you start in on "have you ever had sex outside of a long-term relationship?" Many, many girls are undateable in your books.
Not to mention, men are not always the ones who do the approaching. That's an out-dated way of thinking - women can ask the guy out, too.
I suppose we're done here, because any of my advice is useless if you honestly believe that a woman is worthless after she's had sex with two partners. I really don't even know how you'll find this out before you start to like a girl though, since your interrogation will scare her off.
I agree that porn is not needed for masturbating, but some people like to watch it and I don't think that makes them bad people. People are allowed to have preferences.
I never said watching porn makes you a bad human but watching porn is unhealthy.
And, wow. Based on your criteria for finding a girlfriend, it sounds like you never will (and it's because of your own standards). I feel like finding a girl who's had sex with two or less partners is going to be difficult, unless you're still in high school. Many, if not most, women in their 20s have had at least 2 partners already. I must ask though - how do you intend do find this out anyways? If you ask a girl that you're just starting to date how many partners she's had, that might scare her off. Not to mention if you start in on "have you ever had sex outside of a long-term relationship?" Many, many girls are undateable in your books.
I don’t want a slut as a girlfriend, I’d rather have none at that point. A lot of people ask how many prior partners their current date had. If this scares someone off than they should maybe deal with the consequences of being a slut. If you have sex outside of a relationship as a female you have absolutely zero self respect. Self respect is something that I value highly.
Not to mention, men are not always the ones who do the approaching. That's an out-dated way of thinking - women can ask the guy out, too.
I don’t know why you always seem to focus on exceptions. Men do 99% of the approaching. I never said that females can’t ask a guy out but it happens rarely.
I suppose we're done here, because any of my advice is useless if you honestly believe that a woman is worthless after she's had sex with two partners. I really don't even know how you'll find this out before you start to like a girl though, since your interrogation will scare her off.
A woman with more than two partners is indeed worthless if you plan to have a LTR with her.
I don't know why you think your statements here are more true than mine, or why you somehow have the inside knowledge that I don't, despite you being in Incel.
You know for a fact that in the dating world, men ask women out 99% of the time?? It's been about 50/50 for me with boyfriends, who asked who. Also, "a lot of people ask how many prior partners their current date has had" - how do you know this? And when in your relationship are you going to ask this? (And how will you ask "and were any of those outside of a long-term relationship?" It just seems like a rude and unnecessary question). My partner and I had known each other and were already interested in each other when we discussed this, not dating yet but had already slept together (shocking!! We slept together before being in a long-term relationship but we've survived). BUT, not every couple does discuss it. Many people believe it's rude to ask, because quite frankly, it's none of your business how many people they slept with before you, except of course if they have an STD, in which case yeah, they have to tell you that. But I hate to break it to you, sleeping with more than two men does not automatically make you a slut. If a woman is offended by your question of how many partners she's had, I seriously doubt it's because she's ashamed of "being a slut". Having sex outside of a relationship doesn't make you a slut either, and it doesn't mean you have no self-respect. Like I said, my partner and I slept together before we started dating, and we both have plenty of self-respect, and neither of us are sluts.
I don't know why you think your statements here are more true than mine, or why you somehow have the inside knowledge that I don't, despite you being in Incel.
I have my opinions, you have yours. I never said I have inside knowledge or anything like that. The appeal to (non)-authority is a logical fallacy. You should try to avoid using logical fallacies to prove your point, add credibility or discredit my arguments.
You know for a fact that in the dating world, men ask women out 99% of the time?? It's been about 50/50 for me with boyfriends, who asked who.
God, why do you have to be so fucking autistic? The general rule is that men ask out women in the vast majority of cases. It’s nice that it was 50/50 for you but an exception doesn’t disprove the rule.
Also, "a lot of people ask how many prior partners their current date has had" - how do you know this?
I can read what other people say on the internet? Like are you dumb? Do you think I never talk to people in real life?
And when in your relationship are you going to ask this? (And how will you ask "and were any of those outside of a long-term relationship?" It just seems like a rude and unnecessary question). [...] ...] BUT, not every couple does discuss it. Many people believe it's rude to ask, because quite frankly, it's none of your business how many people they slept with before you, except of course if they have an STD, in which case yeah, they have to tell you that.
It’s not an unnecessary or rude question. It’s very important to me. If you are or someone else is insecure about being a slut, then rightfully so. The past shapes you to the person who you are today. If i was in jail for 10 years for a crime should I keep it a secret and never talk about my past? “None of your business”? I want to know if this person is worth my time or not. Like wtf.
My partner and I had known each other and were already interested in each other when we discussed this, not dating yet but had already slept together (shocking!! We slept together before being in a long-term relationship but we've survived).
You are degenerates and your relationship is likely to fail.
But I hate to break it to you, sleeping with more than two men does not automatically make you a slut. If a woman is offended by your question of how many partners she's had, I seriously doubt it's because she's ashamed of "being a slut". Having sex outside of a relationship doesn't make you a slut either, and it doesn't mean you have no self-respect. Like I said, my partner and I slept together before we started dating, and we both have plenty of self-respect, and neither of us are sluts.
Why else would someone be offended if I ask how many people they had sex with if she doesn’t fear slut shaming? Why are you insecure about your past? As I said before the past makes you the person who you are today. If you have sex outside of a LTR you are a slut and have no self respect whatsoever. At least professional sluts are smart enough charge money for their services.
There is absolutely no point in arguing with you. I’m sure you feel the same. Have a nice day.
Lol yes, I do feel the same that there's no point in arguing and I see you got pretty riled up writing this response. I don't fear slut-shaming, especially from you. I don't care what you think. I was just trying to tell you that I think your opinions on some of these things are outrageous.
I was just letting you know that you're in for a sad surprise if you think that anyone who's slept with more than 2 guys, or has had sex outside of a long-term relationship, is a slut. I don't care if you think I and my boyfriend are both sluts, and I don't care if you think we're degenerates (even though we're neither, lol). We're in a happy long-term relationship and have a child together. We're happy, and it is seriously so unimportant that we slept together before becoming "official". We talked about how many partners we'd each had, we have a similar number (omg! It's over 10! Slut alert), and we're both fine with this. For your own sake, I hope you find a virgin who's just waiting to spend her life with you, I'm just letting you know the chances are looking slim in this day and age.
(Speaking of which, have you looked at what year it is? It's 2018. Yeah, maybe 50 years ago women would be considered sluts if they slept with someone outside of a long-term relationship, but these days it's pretty widely accepted. Aren't you the one who says you use Tinder? If so, you're going to be in for a sad surprise there too. Tinder is a hook-up app, and you'll be incredibly lucky to find a female virgin on there who wants to spend her life with you. But I mean, anything is possible.)
Anyways, yeah, have a better day. Oh, and by the way, my labia now go down to my knees and flap around in the breeze because of all my sluttiness. So, good thing you'll be finding a pure virgin for yourself and not have to worry about that.
A few excerpts related to your points - firstly, the problem with being "average": According to the dotted line on this graph, the distribution of male attractiveness, as appraised by women, is quite harsh; about 80% of men are rated worse than "medium." So if you are an "average" male in the sense that you're at the median of the male population, you're considered "below average" on the scale of attractiveness that women use. Now, I think it's an exaggeration to say it's "literally impossible" to get a date as a male 6, but it's fair to recognize that it's difficult, especially compared to the corresponding situation of a female 6.
What do you have written there? Because if it's some pity-evoking profile, bingo, there's your problem. Or if you read it and it oozes negativity like so many posts here, again, bingo. My guess is that it has very little to do with your picture.
I highly doubt anyone would think it's a good idea to write something "pity-evoking" or "oozing negativity" on a dating profile, making this a pretty questionable assumption...but aside from that, take a look at this graph. To quote the article:
We took a small sample of users and half the time we showed them, we hid their profile text. That generated two independent sets of scores for each profile, one score for “the picture and the text together” and one for “the picture alone.” Here’s how they compare. Again, each dot is a user. Essentially, the text is less than 10% of what people think of you. So, your picture is worth that fabled thousand words, but your actual words are worth…almost nothing.
(Side note: I haven't used OKCupid personally, but my impression is that it's significantly older than Tinder and, unlike Tinder, has a reputation more for dating than casual hookups.)
I already replied to Hopecel about the graphs, but I just wanted to mention about my comment on the bio. I'm not saying someone would write something pity-evoking or negative on purpose, but I feel like whenever I talk with Incels all comments ooze negativity regardless of intent. You absolutely get the vibe when people are incredibly negative, and I just wouldn't be surprised if that snuck through into a dating profile.
Well if you're talking to incels on this subreddit and discussing their lack of success in sex/dating, that's something they're upset about - often the discussion is even directly about their negative feelings (sadness/anger/etc). But in a context unrelated to that, such as trying to describe themselves to sound appealing on a dating site, maybe they are capable of presenting themselves differently? All I'm saying is, it's not uncommon for people to hide how they feel and behave differently according to the situation. Like those cases of people who are depressed and commit suicide, yet people who knew them say "He seemed so happy." I know when I'm having a terrible day or feeling really bad about something, I can still go to work and put on a smile and interact with my coworkers normally as if nothing's wrong.
I guess so. In general though, even if you're not in the Incels subreddit and you come across a member somewhere else on Reddit, you know within a comment or two. They're just one of the most negative groups of people that I've ever met, so even if their dating profile doesn't show that, people would know within a message or two. Like, when I was a teenager I was an emo kid and yeah, I could keep up the happy facade for a little while, but once you started talking to me in more depth or reading more into whatever I wrote, you absolutely could tell. Same with if you're at work and having a bad day, you can keep up the happy facade in small interactions, but if you actually start having a conversation with a co-worker, chances are they would catch on and ask what's wrong.
I have been declared to be 5.5-6 by the lookism community. That is only slightly above average.
Whatever the case, I am not high-value enough for women to sincerely desire me beyond an initial right swipe and minimal chatting. Once women realize that I am not neurotypical, they are further discouraged. If they do show interest, I am just one of many people that they have access to, among them being Chad and Brad. Furthermore, my divergent behavioral traits make me just as desirable as a 3. I am just an autistic man who looks like a high-tier Norman.
Consider this: you are stuck on a deserted island and you come across three fruit trees. One (Tree 1) bears highly colorful fruits and you can tell that the native species of monkey really seem to enjoy it because there are many fruits missing. Another (Tree 2) is also colorful, but has less fruits missing. The third (Tree 3) is only slightly colorful, but there are literally zero fruits on the tree.
Which one do you pick? If you go with Tree 1, you can trust that you will be fine because the monkeys are eating tons of it. You can also go with Tree 2 and expect similar results, but with a lower degree of confidence. If you go Tree 3, you are facing much more uncertainty. While it seems to bear slightly colorful fruit, the fact that no monkey has eaten from it should be a red flag to you.
That is the situation I am facing. While I may be above average, the fact that I am completely barren when it comes to the realm of sexual experience presents a red flag to most women. Why pick me when you could just go for Chad and Brad who have been consistently proven to bear good sexual fruit? My absurd and sometimes humiliating social skills clearly suggest that I am a virgin, or at the very least, am someone with very limited sexual experience. If a woman decides to sleep with me, she understandably feels a sense of discomfort, not only knowing that I am inexperienced, but fearing that I may have other traits that would present a threat to her. While autistic people are not known to be violent, it is common for many in society to assume that they are.
It sounds, though, that the problem lies with your social skills, not because women can automatically detect that you're sexually inexperienced. I know, I know, you probably don't want to hear my advice because I'm some evil woman and you've heard it all before, but I'll type some anyways since you responded to me in a civil manner (thank you, by the way. You're the nicest Incel I've met since you actually typed out a thought-out response instead of throwing insults my way).
Work on your social skills. This does not necessarily mean dating, but go out with friends and interact with as many people as you can, men, women, whatever. Just meet new people and interact with them. If you're comfortable enough to be around women in a friends setting, it's a great start anyways. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, I'm serious. Social skills are key, and if you are comfortable in a social setting with women, a date isn't much beyond that, just talking and interacting with another human.
Maybe online dating is making you feel more down about yourself too, since I see you mentioned a "right swipe" instead of like, meeting someone in person. I think a lot of people feel like they'll never meet anyone, but they're only trying to do so on Tinder. And realistically, Tinder is a hook-up site/app. It makes sense I guess that people are automatically swiping for only hot people they want to hook up with. Right? I don't know, I've never used Tinder or online dating and never will, it seems to perpetuate the Incel beliefs though.
Can you meet people in person? Are you part of any kinds of clubs or anything? Have any musical interests? Music has always been what's connected me with any boyfriend I've had, either being introduced through a friend/work and finding out we have the same musical interests and can talk about that/listen to music together, or meeting at a concert of a band we both like and starting talking because of that, etc. I feel like meeting someone in person, once you've worked on your social skills, is a better bet.
No one worth talking to is going to be put off by your lack of sexual experience. If you encounter someone who is put off by it, forget them, because they're obviously a waste of time and energy. No one is going to know about your lack of sexual experience either, if you're socially apt. Just work on it, man, and I'm sure it'll improve.
Sorry if I'm forgetting or missing anything, and please don't hate on me for trying to help. Other Incels, don't comment with "blah blah you're lying" or "ha ha this advice doesn't work", because in my personal experience, it does work.
I'm tired though, it's like 10pm and I have to get up early, but /u/misanthropycel if you reply to this I should be able to go on my computer again in the morning and I'll reply to you then (if you want, I really am just trying to help). Goodnight!
Tinder used to be for hookups, now all of the apps are just really ways to meet with those that find you attractive, and then based on the conversation, you figure out what you want out of it. And every girl that is single is on at least one. That girl at the grocery store, Bumble. Girl at the library, Coffee Meets Bagel. Girl out at the soccer game, Tinder. So even if you hit it off in person, if there's one thing she doesn't like about you, it's off to her endless buffet of options and you're getting ghosted.
My point in that part of my little rant was about not using online dating. The point is, Tinder and whatever other sites are generally for hook-ups (or as you say, find someone attractive and talk to them), and it's better to meet people in real life. Looks are less important when you're actually talking to someone you've met as a result of common interest. Anyways though, I stuck around longer than I planned to, I'm going to bed now. If you reply to me I'll try to get back to you in the morning. Goodnight :).
It's not necessarily garbage if your looks threshold allows you to match and meet up with girls. It's just another networking tool, just the cost of entry is very high.
I'm confused though, since I thought you said your looks (and anyone who is less than an "8" apparently) didn't get you "matched".
In my opinion, those sites are garbage, whether or not they're getting you to meet girls. Unless you are a) looking for straight hook-ups (and if so, could you not try a more traditional approach, like chatting up some real life girls in a bar or something, if you just wanted a one-night stand?), or b) very attractive and looking for a hook-up. I mean, yeah, some people have met their significant others online (in fact, my sister met her boyfriend on Tinder years ago), but if you're having a hard time with it, try something else. And again, in my opinion, real life is a better option. Instead of focusing on all the negative what-ifs (ie. what you said before about "if there's one thing she doesn't like about you, it's off to her endless buffet of options"), focus on positives. Like, "this girl is talking to me, let's talk about what we have in common" instead of "this girl is talking to me, she must pity me and be waiting for Chad to come take her away". I don't have a good summarizing sentence here, and I have 5 more comments to reply to, mostly if not all in this thread, so I'm going to end this one here. I'm up again though, so I'll be around on and off all day if you wanted to keep talking.
Yes, but even I have been ghosted after being with a girl when they've found someone better. And I'm average, so just think about what happens to those who are under that threshold.
Shitty people exist no matter what. Even very attractive guys get broken up with. These kinds of things are going to happen no matter what. It's not like being a "Chad" just eliminates all problems from your life - some women are bitches, and they're going to be bitches regardless of who they're dealing with.
Despite the misanthropic demeanor that I present, I am open to all viewpoints and am willing to debate them on their own merits. You simply do not need to assume that I will dismiss you out of hand because I am an incel and you are a female. That being said, let me address some of your points.
Tinder does not cause me to feel bad about myself. In fact, it does the exact opposite. I currently have over 30 matches with women that I consider to be slightly below average to average, all women that I would be interested in dating. Nevertheless, the experience is still excruciating. I have to make myself presentable to dozens of people through an app and that is incredibly difficult, especially when you have converse with many of them at the same time. I have tried to set up dates, but I often end up getting ghosted or flaked on. None of my matches have resulted in a sexual experience, because I simply am not good enough for them. As you stated, Tinder is largely seen as a hookup app. When considering this, my scenarios with the trees bears even more fruit (pun intended). Women simply go for looks and status, and if you are lacking in those, you will not be considered. If you are considered, you have to cognizant of the fact that you are likely only one of many that she is concurrently considering, some of whom are more attractive than you.
With regard to social skills: I have been consistently improving my social skills since I began an effort to when I turned 20. While my social anxiety has significantly lessened and I have much better social skills, years of suffering from social neglect and isolation has left me completely clueless when it comes to dating and sex. Even though I am good-looking enough to attract some women, I am simply too immature to share an enjoyable experience with them. Women with I have been friends with tended to realize my immaturity immediately as they soon begin to treat me like they would a little brother. This happened once with a crush I had who approached me sexually but I was too confused to follow through and I freaked out. If my sexual experience was commensurate with hers, I would have felt less nervous and might have followed through with it. Instead, as I said, she began to treat me like a little brother and would often mock me.
Going out to clubs and social groups can help, but this is just very difficult for me. If you are going with a group that is meeting for the very first time, it may be possible to form friendships. However, most groups that you would be joining are made up of friends who have known each other for significant periods of time. You have to break into those groups, and when you lack the social awareness and experience, as many people with Asperger's do, it can be extremely difficult. That does not meant that I do not try, it just means that I have to be realistic about my expectations. Even here, the same status theory applies. Most people in these groups or clubs have other friends and activities that they participate in. You are simply one of dozens of people that they know. If you do not present high status through looks, wealth, or social standing, the person is not going to strongly consider spending time with you. In these situations, trust is also important and you cannot gain that very easily with a new groups. They likely have other people in their lives who can offer that and more.
I understand that you are offering advice, and I do not wish to chastise you for that. But people like me have gotten this sort of advice dozens of times and it simply has not helped much. Conditions like mine make many of us into social pariahs and unless societal views drastically change, it is likely that this will continue to be the case for many years.
I appreciate that you're open to talking to a woman, since every other person who's replied to me on here has essentially discredited everything I say (and given me a one-line reply after I've typed out a big comment to them) on the fact that I'm a woman.
I wasn't trying to be rude when I put in my disclaimer assuming you wouldn't listen to me. It's kind of like how most Incels feel about women how they're all bad and evil and sluts or whatever, my experience with Incels has showed me that very few are actually willing to discuss their ideologies when someone is questioning them. So, good for you. It's definitely a step in the right direction, the fact that you're not just staying buried in your rut and plugging your ears when people try to help/at least explain the truth as we see it.
My stance is that Tinder is not the best choice for meeting women, when it comes to Incels or otherwise. I mean, that's good that you have a lot of matches and I'm glad if it helps with your self-esteem, but I understand why you worry about the girls who do talk to you, that they are likely talking to many other guys at the same time, simply because that's how the app works. However, even though you know this fact in the back of your mind, it doesn't mean you should focus on it. If you're going to continue to try to meet girls online, you shouldn't focus on the fact that they're talking to other people that you feel are more "qualified" than you in regards to dating (especially because you would likely be doing the same thing if you had a lot of matches). I feel that focusing on the negative is a main problem of Incels. If you try to focus on the positive instead (ie. "I'm having a conversation with a girl. This could lead to a date" instead of "I'm having a conversation with a girl. She's probably talking to all sorts of better men"), the positivity would help you for sure. If you're focusing on the negative, chances are that shows through. It does for me, anyways. You can tell if you're talking to someone and they're feeling negative. It affects the way you talk; it shows through.
And your statement about "women go for looks and status" (again with the blanket statements - careful of these. Generalizing 50% of the population is never a good thing), in reality yeah this is true for some women. Not all women. And why would you want to be with a woman who prioritizes how much money you make/how physically attractive you are over who you are inside? Is this how you find women you are attracted to, by her looks/her job? Because if so, that would probably be a good thing to work on as well. In online dating anyways, yeah looks are the door-opener, since it's so fast-paced I'm sure people do just glance at your picture then swipe, and get to know the person after. So if you've got the door-opener, you know what you have to do now is work on your social skills. For Incels that don't have the online-dating door-opener of looks, meet people in real life.
The fact that you recognize that you need to work on your social skills is a good sign as well. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, which is a great start. The girl you described who you had a crush on but then began to mock you for your lack of maturity - it's good that she did this, honestly, because she showed you what kind of person she was, and it's good that you found that out before you had a chance to get involved with her. That's how shitty or abusive relationships start, and I know a lot of Incels claim to not care if it's an abusive relationship (or worse yet, believe that men can't be abused, which is not true) since it's a relationship, but that's not healthy.
If you're immature enough that women notice it immediately, at least you know this is something you have to work on. As you develop your social skills more, maturity will come. And honestly, a good start to maturing would be to drop the toxic Incel mindset. I was replying to someone else about how I believed looks were super important when I was like 14 and focused a lot on keeping myself super thin and wearing make-up and everything, but luckily I've grown out of that. I've matured enough just by living and growing up, so I feel like time is a major factor to help.
With your observation about joining a group or club, you're right that it is hard to break into a social circle for the first time. But you just have to keep doing it, join a club for something that interests you and stick with it. Even if it takes a while, you'll form friendships there and have whatever interest in common. And if you stick with it, soon enough you'll be part of the group and feel comfortable, and then someone else will join and be the newcomer and you'll be able to recognize how uncomfortable they must be (and hopefully be the one to help them integrate into the group). I see again though, that you're focusing on the negative. Instead of thinking that you'll be part of a group with similar interests to your own (and start with just that expectation - to make friends and hone your social skills, don't even think about getting a girlfriend yet. One step at a time), you're worrying about the fact that everyone in the group will have other interests and have "better" friends or options.
If you spend all your time worrying about what everyone else is doing/thinking and how that makes you not good enough, of course you're never going to be happy. Instead of always thinking the worst about everyone and assuming they're talking to someone else or already have someone in their life that's better than you, you need to just think about yourself. Focus on your social skills and improving the,. Try not to stress out about if you make a mistake, just move past it. It's not the end of the world. And yeah, it will take work to integrate yourself into a friends group, but the time and effort will be worth it. Honestly, I find networking through work is a good thing to, since you spend time with your co-workers all the time at work, if you talk to them and have good conversations, eventually you could hang out with them outside of work too, just to work on your social circle in general.
I guess too, a lot of people say that guys who are surrounded by a good circle of friends are more approachable too. If you have friends and are social, women supposedly see this and are more interested to see what all the fuss is about.
If you have gotten advice similar to this many times, I hope you realize that it's true. Because another commenter (I don't think it was you, since you've been nothing but respectful) mentioned that they've received the same advice, about how looks aren't as important as Incels make them out to be, over 100 times, so they didn't want to hear it again. But like, if you hear something 100 different times from 100 different people, don't you think there may be some value to it? It won't be easy, but working on your social skills is your ticket to happiness here.
If your lack of experience with women is such a hold back, bite the bullet and pay for the company of someone to teach you how to behave properly. No joke.
I apologize if this is offensive to you, but I legit could see my outlook being similar had I not being around my sisters' friends growing up and learning how to act. Even now I feel like I don't know shit.
If you're worried about legalities save up for a trip to Costa Rica or Amsterdam
I just finished having this conversation with someone else, but that's ridiculous. First of all, I'm a woman, and I don't even think I've ever met someone who's above an 8 on your stupid scale. It's not "over" if you're not super high on the physical attraction scale. I just went over this, but I've dated guys who are definitely on the lower end of that scale. Looks are not everything.
Lol, no. And don't use blanket statements like that I think 80% of men are below average in looks. I personally would never choose to rate people on a scale of 1 - 10 for looks because that's stupid. I obviously have been attracted to each person I've been with, and that's all that matters to me. In my eyes, each guy was attractive and while I was with them I would have never thought "oh, this guy is a 5" because that's ridiculous. I just know how the scale works, so I'm using it now to say that on YOUR SCALE, guys I've been with would rate lower. It doesn't mean that I felt that way while we were dating, or that it had any effect whatsoever on our relationship. I'm just trying to stoop to your level of using a scale in the first place. This is very difficult, because you're being obtuse on purpose. Nothing I can possibly say will get through to you.
I do take it personally just because I am a woman, and I did not take part in their attractiveness survey, or participate in their website. So I don't like that I am being grouped in with shallow people, because I know for a fact that I am not. I was a bit surprised by the the "most attractive" users for each gender - both the guy and girl on the right are what I would expect for sure, but both of the pictures on the left (still of the "most attractive") are not what I would have expected to get as high ratings (I'm obviously not saying they're unattractive, but I find people in the second and third tier to be better looking. The guy I find most attractive in that article is the one in the third tier, holding the guitar. If I was single and for some reason decided to use online dating, I would never message either of those "top" guys based on picture alone. Then again, I guess I'd be one of the few people who actually reads the profile and checks their music section before messaging anyone at all. It doesn't matter how physically attractive someone is - if they listen to garbage music, there's not a chance I'll be interested in them. In fact, if I was in the market for dating I guess it'd be easy to weed out any non-ideal-matches from that section of their profile alone.
But anyways, I was thinking about it, and how does looking at articles like that possibly help you? Putting more negative ideas into your heads and reinforcing the "fact" that women are shallow and superficial won't help you in the least. If anything, it will have the opposite effect.
but I've dated guys who are definitely on the lower end of that scale. Looks are not everything.
But did you truly want them. Genuinely. Did you yearn for them. When your man was away (at work, say), did you truly miss him and want him to come home to pleasure you?
It is possible for women to date sub8 men, certainly. However, sub8 men do not elicit the same passion from women that Chads do. This is why these relationships typically fail. The woman realizes that she can do much better, and since she has no true feelings for the ugly dude she's dating in the first place, she leaves him as soon as the opportunity arises.
Of course I really wanted them. Why would I be with someone who I didn't truly care for? However, your thinking is all wrong about whether I missed him while he or I was at work and if I was wanting him to come home so he could pleasure me, lol. I'm sorry, because I know you can't understand this as someone who puts sex on such a pedestal, but sex is not the most important part of a relationship. While I was at work I would miss him, sure, but because I looked forward to the end of the day so we could go out on an adventure together or watch a movie or just hang out. I'm not some crazed sexual creature who yearns for a man's touch while I'm not with him. Yeah, we slept together, but that's always pretty low on the priority list of things to do in a relationship. I looked forward to getting off work to hang out and do friend things together, and sex was an afterthought.
Saying that women don't have "true feelings" for ugly guys is pretty ridiculous, too. True feelings come from building a relationship with a person, which (believe it or not) comes from their personality, which includes common interests, their attitude, if you can have good conversations with them, etc. If anything, your idea of "true feelings" coming from looks actually sounds like superficial attraction. If anything, relationships built on superficial attraction are the ones that fail. Relationships built on common interests and good conversations are much more solid and much less likely to fail, because you become attached to the person's personality. Looks don't give you much to go on.
I don't think your facts are straight about "sub 8" men not eliciting the same passion from a woman, either. I doubt I've ever been with a "Chad" (not would I ever want to be, a pretty boy is not someone I'd ever be interested in), and have never had trouble finding passion in my relationships. I also don't think it's realistic that most women would leave their legitimate relationship to chase someone who is physically attractive. Yes, of course some women do, but those aren't the kind of women you would want to be with anyways.
Woman absolutely have the ability to care for men even if they are below average. Again, looks are pretty low on the importance scale. You aren't correct at all that "love hinges on the vaginal tingles and material resources a man provides". I hope for your own sake that you look back on comments like this in 5 or 10 years and realize how ridiculous they are. Sure, some women are golddiggers who want a man for his money or his looks, but it doesn't mean the majority of us are. Some men are the same way, only wanting to date incredibly "hot" women, but I'm not over here putting the blanket statement that because some men are like that, all men must be. Humans are more complex than that, and you can't just group an entire sex together because of what some people do.
i don’t know why ugly men even waste their time doing shit like PMing/discord with “””fa””” women. best case scenario is you become one of a few dozen orbiters. they all have unlimited attractive fakecels like iamhopeless or gambler to choose from. it’s just pathetic.
Yes, but even I have been ghosted after being with a girl when they've found someone better. And I'm average, so just think about what happens to those who are under that threshold.
I don't know why you think your statements here are more true than mine, or why you somehow have the inside knowledge that I don't, despite you being in Incel.
I have my opinions, you have yours. I never said I have inside knowledge or anything like that. The appeal to (non)-authority is a logical fallacy. You should try to avoid using logical fallacies to prove your point, add credibility or discredit my arguments.
You know for a fact that in the dating world, men ask women out 99% of the time?? It's been about 50/50 for me with boyfriends, who asked who.
God, why do you have to be so fucking autistic? The general rule is that men ask out women in the vast majority of cases. It’s nice that it was 50/50 for you but an exception doesn’t disprove the rule.
Also, "a lot of people ask how many prior partners their current date has had" - how do you know this?
I can read what other people say on the internet? Like are you dumb? Do you think I never talk to people in real life?
And when in your relationship are you going to ask this? (And how will you ask "and were any of those outside of a long-term relationship?" It just seems like a rude and unnecessary question). [...] ...] BUT, not every couple does discuss it. Many people believe it's rude to ask, because quite frankly, it's none of your business how many people they slept with before you, except of course if they have an STD, in which case yeah, they have to tell you that.
It’s not an unnecessary or rude question. It’s very important to me. If you are or someone else is insecure about being a slut, then rightfully so. The past shapes you to the person who you are today. If i was in jail for 10 years for a crime should I keep it a secret and never talk about my past? “None of your business”? I want to know if this person is worth my time or not. Like wtf.
My partner and I had known each other and were already interested in each other when we discussed this, not dating yet but had already slept together (shocking!! We slept together before being in a long-term relationship but we've survived).
You are degenerates and your relationship is likely to fail.
But I hate to break it to you, sleeping with more than two men does not automatically make you a slut. If a woman is offended by your question of how many partners she's had, I seriously doubt it's because she's ashamed of "being a slut". Having sex outside of a relationship doesn't make you a slut either, and it doesn't mean you have no self-respect. Like I said, my partner and I slept together before we started dating, and we both have plenty of self-respect, and neither of us are sluts.
Why else would someone be offended if I ask how many people they had sex with if she doesn’t fear slut shaming? Why are you insecure about your past? As I said before the past makes you the person who you are today. If you have sex outside of a LTR you are a slut and have no self respect whatsoever. At least professional sluts are smart enough charge money for their services.
There is absolutely no point in arguing with you. I’m sure you feel the same. Have a nice day.
I have tried therapy and it does not seem to work for me. I have had quite a few therapy sessions where I end up feeling worse afterward. Posting on incels/4chan has helped me much more than therapy ever has.
88 comments
1 geneticwaste43 2018-03-08
VOLCEL
1 kj107 2018-03-08
Lol
1 PROLAPSED_SUBWOOFER 2018-03-08
"jus go for ugly girls bro"
1 superman1145 2018-03-08
What did he look like
1 MyLifeIsHorrible111 2018-03-08
Brutal.
1 anonymousvirgin88 2018-03-08
Would someone here remind me of something that I forgot? Is it over?
1 justforlulzandkeks 2018-03-08
You clearly forgot that it never even began
1 anonymousvirgin88 2018-03-08
Pls no
1 throwaway192200 2018-03-08
Holy fuck that was BRUTAL.
1 misanthropycel 2018-03-08
It doesn't matter unless you're Chad. Sub8s are treated the same all around. A femoid ghosted me even though she told me that I was attractive. She was close to a 4 and I'm close to a 6.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
You're a self-proclaimed "6" and that isn't good enough in your eyes? 6 is literally above average, be it just.
1 Kunachii 2018-03-08
6 is garbage tier, literally impossible to get matched
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
You guys are always throwing around huge blanket statements, such as "all women" would do this or that. This here, saying it is literally impossible to "match" as a 6? That's asinine. 6, as I just said in my other comment, is literally above average. It's stupid to think that a 6 could never get a date. Hell, I've dated guys that I'm sure were lower than a 6 on this rating scale, so that alone means it isn't literally impossible. It's so frustrating to try and help you to understand that this warped way of thinking really isn't true.
1 Kunachii 2018-03-08
:roll_eyes:
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
See, like, I don't get it. Why are you rolling your eyes at that?
1 Kunachii 2018-03-08
https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/832j33/why_dont_you_guys_just_improve_yourself_instead/
Essentially you
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
How do you figure? Did I say one thing in my comment about "improve yourself impossibly to get girls"? No. I mentioned that I've dated guys who were definitely less than a 6 on your stupid scale. Your link has nothing to do with what I said.
1 Kunachii 2018-03-08
You're saying that even a 6/10 can date.
I'm saying a 6/10 cannot match, and that your thinking is idealistic. Hence the middle portion, but you probably didn't read past the first line.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
What are you talking about? I read that post before you linked me to it, and it's just a sad joke, ha, ha, right, the only way a 5'2 Indian guy to get a date is to turn into a tall blond guy? Har, har. It's not funny, and it's not true. I don't know what you mean by a 6/10 can't match, but can date. What does that even mean?
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
It’s true though. I’ve used a pic on tinder on which I looked average and I got four matches in 1100 swipes. Now it’s up to you to to decide whether I’m uglier than I think I am or that even average guys have it extremely hard in the online dating world.
1 fuckin_kiddin_me_rn 2018-03-08
I actually get a shitton of more matches if I put my height in. But you need to have atleast an average face to pull that off
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I’d probably have no matches if I put height in.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
What is true, that it's "literally impossible" to get a date if your looks are less than a "6"? Because that's what my comment was, was that I've dated guys who were less than a 6. However, I've never online dated, and would personally recommend trying to meet people in person as it's easier to get to know someone, plus harder for them to reject you. Online it's as easy as not replying to a message or whatever, but in person it's more difficult so they'd be more likely to get to know you.
However, my guess is that if you are pretty average looking and very few people are matching up with you, it's probably something else to do with your profile. What do you have written there? Because if it's some pity-evoking profile, bingo, there's your problem. Or if you read it and it oozes negativity like so many posts here, again, bingo. My guess is that it has very little to do with your picture.
I don't even think I have any like super typically attractive friends, they are all pretty normal looking, but they're all fun to be around and most are musically inclined (which has always been my main criterion for being interested in a guy, our musical interests lining up), some are closer to the ugly end of the scale than the "Chad" end, and many of them are short and/or have acne problems, but they all have/have had girlfriends. Yeah, maybe it was harder in high school because there weren't as many options there are there are in the real world, but yeah, even my chubbiest and shortest friends have girlfriends now. Could you explain that to me?
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I’ve specified that in online dating that it’s extremely hard for average looking guys. I agree that in real life you have better chances but I’ve gotten only rejections irl too.
I can only look average in extremely good pictures. No, I haven’t written any pity-evoking or something that oozes negativity. I don’t know why you always think of the worst of incels. Bio doesn’t matter, I’ve got a lot of proof for this.
Like you said they are pretty normal looking. Consider the below average looking guys lucky. I have a hard time imaging what you / an average female thinks an average guy looks like.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
Lol, I'm not assuming the worst of Incels by asking about your bio. I just figure that since in every single comment reply I've gotten from you your negativity is seeping through, so I am surprised that you're able to mask that in a bio about yourself.
Believe it or not, I've met many, many guys in my life, and you seriously think I don't know what an average man looks like? I'm aware of looks, even if I don't think they're half as important as you seem to think they are. I don't think that the "below average" guys that I'm friends with are especially lucky when it comes to dating. I think that the reason I'm friends with them is the same reason they get girlfriends - they are fun to be around, and fun to talk to. I say that my friends are all pretty normal looking because even if they're not very physically attractive I don't think of them as ugly, because they're not ugly people inside. In my life I've probably had more male friends than female, so I definitely feel confident in telling you I know what an average/below average man looks like. My only curiosity though, is what you think an average man looks like, and who in the world is above an 8 with these standards?
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I’m rating attractiveness based on a bell curve. Most people, about 70%, are average looking, or every so slightly below or ever so slight above. This would mean they are a 4-6/10. An 8/10 would be an actual model with hundred thousands followers on social media. An 8/10 would fall into the top 10% percentage of attractiveness. I think this sounds fairly logical.
Now let’s take a look how males on OkCupid rated female attractiveness.
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*EusB8T1lLN08buIP.png
Let’s take a look how females on OkCupid rated male attractiveness.
https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*aWz0dYzuUR7PO3dP.png
Like I said I have a hard time imagining what an average female thinks how an average guy looks like. People who spend their whole day on social media looking at people who get paid to look good are likely to have a skewed perception of reality.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
Ah, an online dating site graph. Online dating, which I've mentioned several times (not sure if to you, I'm replying to a ton of comments right now) is a problem. Maybe you could go out on the street and ask women who haven't been conditioned with this fast-paced looking-at-pictures-first type of dating, because I think that's pretty stupid that women in this survey said that only 20% of guys are better-than average. May I ask you how so many men in the world get married, or even date, if women only like 20% of them? It's not like 80% of men are single.
And if you're talking about me again and doubting that I know what an average guy looks like, that's stupid. You think I get my information from looking at guys who get paid to look good, on social media much less??? Lol, as if. I don't go on Instagram (although I hear there are models there. How stupid) or Facebook or anywhere else you might think that I'm looking at pictures of men wearing make-up and having photo-shopped faces and abs. That's asinine. I just happen to have life experience and have met many men in my life, so I'm quite positive I have a realistic grasp of what "average" is. Likely much more realistic than yours, in fact.
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I’d say the creditability of that study is pretty high because irl people would fear social repercussions for expressing their true feeling, i.e. calling someone ugly if they were shown pictures. Most people have tried out online dating and it’s not like these people only exist on the internet or only use online dating as their only way of meeting new people. It might be surprising to you but in general females seem to make up slightly more than half the user base for online dating apps.
Women settle for these guys once they understand that they can not obtain what they actually crave. I wonder how many people, especially females, think of other people when they are having sex with their partner.
I kept the paragraph of my last reply very general and didn’t mean you specifically. Most people have social media outlets. I’ve already explained how attractiveness should be rated and I don’t understand why you’d think that I don’t know what an average guy looks like. I don’t really have any social media of my own if you don’t count things like reddit, twitch and YouTube, the latter being slightly controversial.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I apologize, I thought you meant me specifically and I'm like, where are you getting this nonsense data? I was just saying that if you didn't think I knew what the average guy looks like, I was saying that you must not either.
I guess a lot of the problem here is that you're focusing on women who really shouldn't be focused on. You're wasting your energy thinking about women who "settle" rather than finding love. Yeah, maybe when a woman is nearing the end of her 30's she might feel worried and make a rash decision about a man to marry. This does not mean it's common practice, though. Same with worrying that women think about other men during sex - what is the point in worrying about this? I personally never have, but I'm sure some women do. But some men do, too. It's fantasy. It's just like when you masturbate to watching porn - you close your eyes and think about the woman you just watched. I'm sure my partner has done that before when he's closed his eyes during sex, remembering a part of a porno he watched? Honestly, so what? It's not hurting anyone.
And of course I'm not surprised that women make up about half of the online dating world. Women make up 50% of the population of the planet, it only makes sense that they'd make up 50% of the online dating world. Just other than a few people off the top of my head, I can't think of many that I know who do. I can't think of many men who do either, though. But I know it's obviously a thing.
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
Yes, it’s becoming more and more common that women who are in their late 20s / early 30s just search for men to settle with after they rode the cock carousel. I have no desire to become a beta provider for some whore. What’s the point of having a relationship if your partner doesn’t think that you are the most beautiful person? I don’t want to be settled for.
That’s pretty much cheating in my book.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
It's funny, I'm having a discussion right now in /r/relationship_advice about whether or not porn is considered cheating. In my books, it's not. If a man (or woman) wants more sex than their partner in the relationship, masturbation is pretty normal to deal with this. And a lot of people watch porn to masturbate. Whatever. I'm just saying not to focus on the fact that a girl might be thinking about someone else during sex. Chances are she's not, but why worry about what she may or may not be thinking? It's just going to tear you up.
How do you know that it's becoming common practice for women to "search for men to settle with after they rode the cock carousel"? Many of the women I know just date. They meet guys that they like, through mutual friends or work or social groups, they date them, and if it doesn't work out, they survive just fine on their own for a while (not riding the "cock carousel"), and eventually end up dating someone else. They don't focus their entire life around their sexuality - they do things that make them happy like traveling or hobbies or whatever, and if they meet someone along the way? Great. If not, it's not the end of the world. There isn't a time-limit for when you must "settle down". People can still date no matter what age.
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
Masturbation is fine if one wants more sex than the other one but you don't need to watch porn to masturbate.
If a woman has had more than two sexual partners she's worthless. Two is the maximum amount of partners that's still acceptable for me if you plan to have marriage one day.
No doubt that this works great for normies but this would be considered bad advice for incels. Another thing is that men are the ones to do the approaching, so women can just live their life without worrying about finding a partner.
Yea, most people feel the need to settle down in their 30s. Dating above 30 is extremely hard from what I've read.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I agree that porn is not needed for masturbating, but some people like to watch it and I don't think that makes them bad people. People are allowed to have preferences.
And, wow. Based on your criteria for finding a girlfriend, it sounds like you never will (and it's because of your own standards). I feel like finding a girl who's had sex with two or less partners is going to be difficult, unless you're still in high school. Many, if not most, women in their 20s have had at least 2 partners already. I must ask though - how do you intend do find this out anyways? If you ask a girl that you're just starting to date how many partners she's had, that might scare her off. Not to mention if you start in on "have you ever had sex outside of a long-term relationship?" Many, many girls are undateable in your books.
Not to mention, men are not always the ones who do the approaching. That's an out-dated way of thinking - women can ask the guy out, too.
I suppose we're done here, because any of my advice is useless if you honestly believe that a woman is worthless after she's had sex with two partners. I really don't even know how you'll find this out before you start to like a girl though, since your interrogation will scare her off.
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I never said watching porn makes you a bad human but watching porn is unhealthy.
I don’t want a slut as a girlfriend, I’d rather have none at that point. A lot of people ask how many prior partners their current date had. If this scares someone off than they should maybe deal with the consequences of being a slut. If you have sex outside of a relationship as a female you have absolutely zero self respect. Self respect is something that I value highly.
I don’t know why you always seem to focus on exceptions. Men do 99% of the approaching. I never said that females can’t ask a guy out but it happens rarely.
A woman with more than two partners is indeed worthless if you plan to have a LTR with her.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I don't know why you think your statements here are more true than mine, or why you somehow have the inside knowledge that I don't, despite you being in Incel.
You know for a fact that in the dating world, men ask women out 99% of the time?? It's been about 50/50 for me with boyfriends, who asked who. Also, "a lot of people ask how many prior partners their current date has had" - how do you know this? And when in your relationship are you going to ask this? (And how will you ask "and were any of those outside of a long-term relationship?" It just seems like a rude and unnecessary question). My partner and I had known each other and were already interested in each other when we discussed this, not dating yet but had already slept together (shocking!! We slept together before being in a long-term relationship but we've survived). BUT, not every couple does discuss it. Many people believe it's rude to ask, because quite frankly, it's none of your business how many people they slept with before you, except of course if they have an STD, in which case yeah, they have to tell you that. But I hate to break it to you, sleeping with more than two men does not automatically make you a slut. If a woman is offended by your question of how many partners she's had, I seriously doubt it's because she's ashamed of "being a slut". Having sex outside of a relationship doesn't make you a slut either, and it doesn't mean you have no self-respect. Like I said, my partner and I slept together before we started dating, and we both have plenty of self-respect, and neither of us are sluts.
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I have my opinions, you have yours. I never said I have inside knowledge or anything like that. The appeal to (non)-authority is a logical fallacy. You should try to avoid using logical fallacies to prove your point, add credibility or discredit my arguments.
God, why do you have to be so fucking autistic? The general rule is that men ask out women in the vast majority of cases. It’s nice that it was 50/50 for you but an exception doesn’t disprove the rule.
I can read what other people say on the internet? Like are you dumb? Do you think I never talk to people in real life?
It’s not an unnecessary or rude question. It’s very important to me. If you are or someone else is insecure about being a slut, then rightfully so. The past shapes you to the person who you are today. If i was in jail for 10 years for a crime should I keep it a secret and never talk about my past? “None of your business”? I want to know if this person is worth my time or not. Like wtf.
You are degenerates and your relationship is likely to fail.
Why else would someone be offended if I ask how many people they had sex with if she doesn’t fear slut shaming? Why are you insecure about your past? As I said before the past makes you the person who you are today. If you have sex outside of a LTR you are a slut and have no self respect whatsoever. At least professional sluts are smart enough charge money for their services.
There is absolutely no point in arguing with you. I’m sure you feel the same. Have a nice day.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
Lol yes, I do feel the same that there's no point in arguing and I see you got pretty riled up writing this response. I don't fear slut-shaming, especially from you. I don't care what you think. I was just trying to tell you that I think your opinions on some of these things are outrageous.
I was just letting you know that you're in for a sad surprise if you think that anyone who's slept with more than 2 guys, or has had sex outside of a long-term relationship, is a slut. I don't care if you think I and my boyfriend are both sluts, and I don't care if you think we're degenerates (even though we're neither, lol). We're in a happy long-term relationship and have a child together. We're happy, and it is seriously so unimportant that we slept together before becoming "official". We talked about how many partners we'd each had, we have a similar number (omg! It's over 10! Slut alert), and we're both fine with this. For your own sake, I hope you find a virgin who's just waiting to spend her life with you, I'm just letting you know the chances are looking slim in this day and age.
(Speaking of which, have you looked at what year it is? It's 2018. Yeah, maybe 50 years ago women would be considered sluts if they slept with someone outside of a long-term relationship, but these days it's pretty widely accepted. Aren't you the one who says you use Tinder? If so, you're going to be in for a sad surprise there too. Tinder is a hook-up app, and you'll be incredibly lucky to find a female virgin on there who wants to spend her life with you. But I mean, anything is possible.)
Anyways, yeah, have a better day. Oh, and by the way, my labia now go down to my knees and flap around in the breeze because of all my sluttiness. So, good thing you'll be finding a pure virgin for yourself and not have to worry about that.
1 kta2 2018-03-08
If you haven't already, you may be interested in looking at these articles analyzing data from dating site OKCupid:
"We Experiment on Human Beings"
"Your Looks and Your Inbox"
A few excerpts related to your points - firstly, the problem with being "average": According to the dotted line on this graph, the distribution of male attractiveness, as appraised by women, is quite harsh; about 80% of men are rated worse than "medium." So if you are an "average" male in the sense that you're at the median of the male population, you're considered "below average" on the scale of attractiveness that women use. Now, I think it's an exaggeration to say it's "literally impossible" to get a date as a male 6, but it's fair to recognize that it's difficult, especially compared to the corresponding situation of a female 6.
I highly doubt anyone would think it's a good idea to write something "pity-evoking" or "oozing negativity" on a dating profile, making this a pretty questionable assumption...but aside from that, take a look at this graph. To quote the article:
(Side note: I haven't used OKCupid personally, but my impression is that it's significantly older than Tinder and, unlike Tinder, has a reputation more for dating than casual hookups.)
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I already replied to Hopecel about the graphs, but I just wanted to mention about my comment on the bio. I'm not saying someone would write something pity-evoking or negative on purpose, but I feel like whenever I talk with Incels all comments ooze negativity regardless of intent. You absolutely get the vibe when people are incredibly negative, and I just wouldn't be surprised if that snuck through into a dating profile.
1 kta2 2018-03-08
Well if you're talking to incels on this subreddit and discussing their lack of success in sex/dating, that's something they're upset about - often the discussion is even directly about their negative feelings (sadness/anger/etc). But in a context unrelated to that, such as trying to describe themselves to sound appealing on a dating site, maybe they are capable of presenting themselves differently? All I'm saying is, it's not uncommon for people to hide how they feel and behave differently according to the situation. Like those cases of people who are depressed and commit suicide, yet people who knew them say "He seemed so happy." I know when I'm having a terrible day or feeling really bad about something, I can still go to work and put on a smile and interact with my coworkers normally as if nothing's wrong.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I guess so. In general though, even if you're not in the Incels subreddit and you come across a member somewhere else on Reddit, you know within a comment or two. They're just one of the most negative groups of people that I've ever met, so even if their dating profile doesn't show that, people would know within a message or two. Like, when I was a teenager I was an emo kid and yeah, I could keep up the happy facade for a little while, but once you started talking to me in more depth or reading more into whatever I wrote, you absolutely could tell. Same with if you're at work and having a bad day, you can keep up the happy facade in small interactions, but if you actually start having a conversation with a co-worker, chances are they would catch on and ask what's wrong.
1 misanthropycel 2018-03-08
I have been declared to be 5.5-6 by the lookism community. That is only slightly above average.
Whatever the case, I am not high-value enough for women to sincerely desire me beyond an initial right swipe and minimal chatting. Once women realize that I am not neurotypical, they are further discouraged. If they do show interest, I am just one of many people that they have access to, among them being Chad and Brad. Furthermore, my divergent behavioral traits make me just as desirable as a 3. I am just an autistic man who looks like a high-tier Norman.
Consider this: you are stuck on a deserted island and you come across three fruit trees. One (Tree 1) bears highly colorful fruits and you can tell that the native species of monkey really seem to enjoy it because there are many fruits missing. Another (Tree 2) is also colorful, but has less fruits missing. The third (Tree 3) is only slightly colorful, but there are literally zero fruits on the tree.
Which one do you pick? If you go with Tree 1, you can trust that you will be fine because the monkeys are eating tons of it. You can also go with Tree 2 and expect similar results, but with a lower degree of confidence. If you go Tree 3, you are facing much more uncertainty. While it seems to bear slightly colorful fruit, the fact that no monkey has eaten from it should be a red flag to you.
That is the situation I am facing. While I may be above average, the fact that I am completely barren when it comes to the realm of sexual experience presents a red flag to most women. Why pick me when you could just go for Chad and Brad who have been consistently proven to bear good sexual fruit? My absurd and sometimes humiliating social skills clearly suggest that I am a virgin, or at the very least, am someone with very limited sexual experience. If a woman decides to sleep with me, she understandably feels a sense of discomfort, not only knowing that I am inexperienced, but fearing that I may have other traits that would present a threat to her. While autistic people are not known to be violent, it is common for many in society to assume that they are.
That is why I am still a virgin.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
It sounds, though, that the problem lies with your social skills, not because women can automatically detect that you're sexually inexperienced. I know, I know, you probably don't want to hear my advice because I'm some evil woman and you've heard it all before, but I'll type some anyways since you responded to me in a civil manner (thank you, by the way. You're the nicest Incel I've met since you actually typed out a thought-out response instead of throwing insults my way).
Work on your social skills. This does not necessarily mean dating, but go out with friends and interact with as many people as you can, men, women, whatever. Just meet new people and interact with them. If you're comfortable enough to be around women in a friends setting, it's a great start anyways. I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, I'm serious. Social skills are key, and if you are comfortable in a social setting with women, a date isn't much beyond that, just talking and interacting with another human.
Maybe online dating is making you feel more down about yourself too, since I see you mentioned a "right swipe" instead of like, meeting someone in person. I think a lot of people feel like they'll never meet anyone, but they're only trying to do so on Tinder. And realistically, Tinder is a hook-up site/app. It makes sense I guess that people are automatically swiping for only hot people they want to hook up with. Right? I don't know, I've never used Tinder or online dating and never will, it seems to perpetuate the Incel beliefs though.
Can you meet people in person? Are you part of any kinds of clubs or anything? Have any musical interests? Music has always been what's connected me with any boyfriend I've had, either being introduced through a friend/work and finding out we have the same musical interests and can talk about that/listen to music together, or meeting at a concert of a band we both like and starting talking because of that, etc. I feel like meeting someone in person, once you've worked on your social skills, is a better bet.
No one worth talking to is going to be put off by your lack of sexual experience. If you encounter someone who is put off by it, forget them, because they're obviously a waste of time and energy. No one is going to know about your lack of sexual experience either, if you're socially apt. Just work on it, man, and I'm sure it'll improve.
Sorry if I'm forgetting or missing anything, and please don't hate on me for trying to help. Other Incels, don't comment with "blah blah you're lying" or "ha ha this advice doesn't work", because in my personal experience, it does work.
I'm tired though, it's like 10pm and I have to get up early, but /u/misanthropycel if you reply to this I should be able to go on my computer again in the morning and I'll reply to you then (if you want, I really am just trying to help). Goodnight!
1 dj10show 2018-03-08
Tinder used to be for hookups, now all of the apps are just really ways to meet with those that find you attractive, and then based on the conversation, you figure out what you want out of it. And every girl that is single is on at least one. That girl at the grocery store, Bumble. Girl at the library, Coffee Meets Bagel. Girl out at the soccer game, Tinder. So even if you hit it off in person, if there's one thing she doesn't like about you, it's off to her endless buffet of options and you're getting ghosted.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
My point in that part of my little rant was about not using online dating. The point is, Tinder and whatever other sites are generally for hook-ups (or as you say, find someone attractive and talk to them), and it's better to meet people in real life. Looks are less important when you're actually talking to someone you've met as a result of common interest. Anyways though, I stuck around longer than I planned to, I'm going to bed now. If you reply to me I'll try to get back to you in the morning. Goodnight :).
1 dj10show 2018-03-08
It's not necessarily garbage if your looks threshold allows you to match and meet up with girls. It's just another networking tool, just the cost of entry is very high.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I'm confused though, since I thought you said your looks (and anyone who is less than an "8" apparently) didn't get you "matched".
In my opinion, those sites are garbage, whether or not they're getting you to meet girls. Unless you are a) looking for straight hook-ups (and if so, could you not try a more traditional approach, like chatting up some real life girls in a bar or something, if you just wanted a one-night stand?), or b) very attractive and looking for a hook-up. I mean, yeah, some people have met their significant others online (in fact, my sister met her boyfriend on Tinder years ago), but if you're having a hard time with it, try something else. And again, in my opinion, real life is a better option. Instead of focusing on all the negative what-ifs (ie. what you said before about "if there's one thing she doesn't like about you, it's off to her endless buffet of options"), focus on positives. Like, "this girl is talking to me, let's talk about what we have in common" instead of "this girl is talking to me, she must pity me and be waiting for Chad to come take her away". I don't have a good summarizing sentence here, and I have 5 more comments to reply to, mostly if not all in this thread, so I'm going to end this one here. I'm up again though, so I'll be around on and off all day if you wanted to keep talking.
1 dj10show 2018-03-08
I didn't say I believe in sub-8 can rot theory. It's worked for me and there's no way I'm an 8+.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
It's worked for you as in, you're able to get girlfriends? Because if so I'm a bit confused about why we're arguing in the first place.
1 dj10show 2018-03-08
Yes, but even I have been ghosted after being with a girl when they've found someone better. And I'm average, so just think about what happens to those who are under that threshold.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
Shitty people exist no matter what. Even very attractive guys get broken up with. These kinds of things are going to happen no matter what. It's not like being a "Chad" just eliminates all problems from your life - some women are bitches, and they're going to be bitches regardless of who they're dealing with.
1 misanthropycel 2018-03-08
Despite the misanthropic demeanor that I present, I am open to all viewpoints and am willing to debate them on their own merits. You simply do not need to assume that I will dismiss you out of hand because I am an incel and you are a female. That being said, let me address some of your points.
Tinder does not cause me to feel bad about myself. In fact, it does the exact opposite. I currently have over 30 matches with women that I consider to be slightly below average to average, all women that I would be interested in dating. Nevertheless, the experience is still excruciating. I have to make myself presentable to dozens of people through an app and that is incredibly difficult, especially when you have converse with many of them at the same time. I have tried to set up dates, but I often end up getting ghosted or flaked on. None of my matches have resulted in a sexual experience, because I simply am not good enough for them. As you stated, Tinder is largely seen as a hookup app. When considering this, my scenarios with the trees bears even more fruit (pun intended). Women simply go for looks and status, and if you are lacking in those, you will not be considered. If you are considered, you have to cognizant of the fact that you are likely only one of many that she is concurrently considering, some of whom are more attractive than you.
With regard to social skills: I have been consistently improving my social skills since I began an effort to when I turned 20. While my social anxiety has significantly lessened and I have much better social skills, years of suffering from social neglect and isolation has left me completely clueless when it comes to dating and sex. Even though I am good-looking enough to attract some women, I am simply too immature to share an enjoyable experience with them. Women with I have been friends with tended to realize my immaturity immediately as they soon begin to treat me like they would a little brother. This happened once with a crush I had who approached me sexually but I was too confused to follow through and I freaked out. If my sexual experience was commensurate with hers, I would have felt less nervous and might have followed through with it. Instead, as I said, she began to treat me like a little brother and would often mock me.
Going out to clubs and social groups can help, but this is just very difficult for me. If you are going with a group that is meeting for the very first time, it may be possible to form friendships. However, most groups that you would be joining are made up of friends who have known each other for significant periods of time. You have to break into those groups, and when you lack the social awareness and experience, as many people with Asperger's do, it can be extremely difficult. That does not meant that I do not try, it just means that I have to be realistic about my expectations. Even here, the same status theory applies. Most people in these groups or clubs have other friends and activities that they participate in. You are simply one of dozens of people that they know. If you do not present high status through looks, wealth, or social standing, the person is not going to strongly consider spending time with you. In these situations, trust is also important and you cannot gain that very easily with a new groups. They likely have other people in their lives who can offer that and more.
I understand that you are offering advice, and I do not wish to chastise you for that. But people like me have gotten this sort of advice dozens of times and it simply has not helped much. Conditions like mine make many of us into social pariahs and unless societal views drastically change, it is likely that this will continue to be the case for many years.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I appreciate that you're open to talking to a woman, since every other person who's replied to me on here has essentially discredited everything I say (and given me a one-line reply after I've typed out a big comment to them) on the fact that I'm a woman.
I wasn't trying to be rude when I put in my disclaimer assuming you wouldn't listen to me. It's kind of like how most Incels feel about women how they're all bad and evil and sluts or whatever, my experience with Incels has showed me that very few are actually willing to discuss their ideologies when someone is questioning them. So, good for you. It's definitely a step in the right direction, the fact that you're not just staying buried in your rut and plugging your ears when people try to help/at least explain the truth as we see it.
My stance is that Tinder is not the best choice for meeting women, when it comes to Incels or otherwise. I mean, that's good that you have a lot of matches and I'm glad if it helps with your self-esteem, but I understand why you worry about the girls who do talk to you, that they are likely talking to many other guys at the same time, simply because that's how the app works. However, even though you know this fact in the back of your mind, it doesn't mean you should focus on it. If you're going to continue to try to meet girls online, you shouldn't focus on the fact that they're talking to other people that you feel are more "qualified" than you in regards to dating (especially because you would likely be doing the same thing if you had a lot of matches). I feel that focusing on the negative is a main problem of Incels. If you try to focus on the positive instead (ie. "I'm having a conversation with a girl. This could lead to a date" instead of "I'm having a conversation with a girl. She's probably talking to all sorts of better men"), the positivity would help you for sure. If you're focusing on the negative, chances are that shows through. It does for me, anyways. You can tell if you're talking to someone and they're feeling negative. It affects the way you talk; it shows through.
And your statement about "women go for looks and status" (again with the blanket statements - careful of these. Generalizing 50% of the population is never a good thing), in reality yeah this is true for some women. Not all women. And why would you want to be with a woman who prioritizes how much money you make/how physically attractive you are over who you are inside? Is this how you find women you are attracted to, by her looks/her job? Because if so, that would probably be a good thing to work on as well. In online dating anyways, yeah looks are the door-opener, since it's so fast-paced I'm sure people do just glance at your picture then swipe, and get to know the person after. So if you've got the door-opener, you know what you have to do now is work on your social skills. For Incels that don't have the online-dating door-opener of looks, meet people in real life.
The fact that you recognize that you need to work on your social skills is a good sign as well. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, which is a great start. The girl you described who you had a crush on but then began to mock you for your lack of maturity - it's good that she did this, honestly, because she showed you what kind of person she was, and it's good that you found that out before you had a chance to get involved with her. That's how shitty or abusive relationships start, and I know a lot of Incels claim to not care if it's an abusive relationship (or worse yet, believe that men can't be abused, which is not true) since it's a relationship, but that's not healthy.
If you're immature enough that women notice it immediately, at least you know this is something you have to work on. As you develop your social skills more, maturity will come. And honestly, a good start to maturing would be to drop the toxic Incel mindset. I was replying to someone else about how I believed looks were super important when I was like 14 and focused a lot on keeping myself super thin and wearing make-up and everything, but luckily I've grown out of that. I've matured enough just by living and growing up, so I feel like time is a major factor to help.
With your observation about joining a group or club, you're right that it is hard to break into a social circle for the first time. But you just have to keep doing it, join a club for something that interests you and stick with it. Even if it takes a while, you'll form friendships there and have whatever interest in common. And if you stick with it, soon enough you'll be part of the group and feel comfortable, and then someone else will join and be the newcomer and you'll be able to recognize how uncomfortable they must be (and hopefully be the one to help them integrate into the group). I see again though, that you're focusing on the negative. Instead of thinking that you'll be part of a group with similar interests to your own (and start with just that expectation - to make friends and hone your social skills, don't even think about getting a girlfriend yet. One step at a time), you're worrying about the fact that everyone in the group will have other interests and have "better" friends or options.
If you spend all your time worrying about what everyone else is doing/thinking and how that makes you not good enough, of course you're never going to be happy. Instead of always thinking the worst about everyone and assuming they're talking to someone else or already have someone in their life that's better than you, you need to just think about yourself. Focus on your social skills and improving the,. Try not to stress out about if you make a mistake, just move past it. It's not the end of the world. And yeah, it will take work to integrate yourself into a friends group, but the time and effort will be worth it. Honestly, I find networking through work is a good thing to, since you spend time with your co-workers all the time at work, if you talk to them and have good conversations, eventually you could hang out with them outside of work too, just to work on your social circle in general.
I guess too, a lot of people say that guys who are surrounded by a good circle of friends are more approachable too. If you have friends and are social, women supposedly see this and are more interested to see what all the fuss is about.
If you have gotten advice similar to this many times, I hope you realize that it's true. Because another commenter (I don't think it was you, since you've been nothing but respectful) mentioned that they've received the same advice, about how looks aren't as important as Incels make them out to be, over 100 times, so they didn't want to hear it again. But like, if you hear something 100 different times from 100 different people, don't you think there may be some value to it? It won't be easy, but working on your social skills is your ticket to happiness here.
1 PhotorazonCannon 2018-03-08
If your lack of experience with women is such a hold back, bite the bullet and pay for the company of someone to teach you how to behave properly. No joke.
I apologize if this is offensive to you, but I legit could see my outlook being similar had I not being around my sisters' friends growing up and learning how to act. Even now I feel like I don't know shit.
If you're worried about legalities save up for a trip to Costa Rica or Amsterdam
1 DowntownWrongdoer 2018-03-08
It's not above average.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
If the scale goes from 1 to 10, would 5 not be average? Therefore 6 is just above, or at least on the high end of "average".
1 just_for_the_record 2018-03-08
Women see 80% of men as below average. If you're sub8, it's over.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I just finished having this conversation with someone else, but that's ridiculous. First of all, I'm a woman, and I don't even think I've ever met someone who's above an 8 on your stupid scale. It's not "over" if you're not super high on the physical attraction scale. I just went over this, but I've dated guys who are definitely on the lower end of that scale. Looks are not everything.
1 just_for_the_record 2018-03-08
They were less than an 8 in your eyes. You think 80% of men are below average in terms of looks.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
Lol, no. And don't use blanket statements like that I think 80% of men are below average in looks. I personally would never choose to rate people on a scale of 1 - 10 for looks because that's stupid. I obviously have been attracted to each person I've been with, and that's all that matters to me. In my eyes, each guy was attractive and while I was with them I would have never thought "oh, this guy is a 5" because that's ridiculous. I just know how the scale works, so I'm using it now to say that on YOUR SCALE, guys I've been with would rate lower. It doesn't mean that I felt that way while we were dating, or that it had any effect whatsoever on our relationship. I'm just trying to stoop to your level of using a scale in the first place. This is very difficult, because you're being obtuse on purpose. Nothing I can possibly say will get through to you.
1 just_for_the_record 2018-03-08
Don't take it personally. Women just see men unrealistically and think they're constantly settling.
https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
I do take it personally just because I am a woman, and I did not take part in their attractiveness survey, or participate in their website. So I don't like that I am being grouped in with shallow people, because I know for a fact that I am not. I was a bit surprised by the the "most attractive" users for each gender - both the guy and girl on the right are what I would expect for sure, but both of the pictures on the left (still of the "most attractive") are not what I would have expected to get as high ratings (I'm obviously not saying they're unattractive, but I find people in the second and third tier to be better looking. The guy I find most attractive in that article is the one in the third tier, holding the guitar. If I was single and for some reason decided to use online dating, I would never message either of those "top" guys based on picture alone. Then again, I guess I'd be one of the few people who actually reads the profile and checks their music section before messaging anyone at all. It doesn't matter how physically attractive someone is - if they listen to garbage music, there's not a chance I'll be interested in them. In fact, if I was in the market for dating I guess it'd be easy to weed out any non-ideal-matches from that section of their profile alone.
But anyways, I was thinking about it, and how does looking at articles like that possibly help you? Putting more negative ideas into your heads and reinforcing the "fact" that women are shallow and superficial won't help you in the least. If anything, it will have the opposite effect.
1 TheVertex_ 2018-03-08
But did you truly want them. Genuinely. Did you yearn for them. When your man was away (at work, say), did you truly miss him and want him to come home to pleasure you?
It is possible for women to date sub8 men, certainly. However, sub8 men do not elicit the same passion from women that Chads do. This is why these relationships typically fail. The woman realizes that she can do much better, and since she has no true feelings for the ugly dude she's dating in the first place, she leaves him as soon as the opportunity arises.
1 catherUne 2018-03-08
Of course I really wanted them. Why would I be with someone who I didn't truly care for? However, your thinking is all wrong about whether I missed him while he or I was at work and if I was wanting him to come home so he could pleasure me, lol. I'm sorry, because I know you can't understand this as someone who puts sex on such a pedestal, but sex is not the most important part of a relationship. While I was at work I would miss him, sure, but because I looked forward to the end of the day so we could go out on an adventure together or watch a movie or just hang out. I'm not some crazed sexual creature who yearns for a man's touch while I'm not with him. Yeah, we slept together, but that's always pretty low on the priority list of things to do in a relationship. I looked forward to getting off work to hang out and do friend things together, and sex was an afterthought.
Saying that women don't have "true feelings" for ugly guys is pretty ridiculous, too. True feelings come from building a relationship with a person, which (believe it or not) comes from their personality, which includes common interests, their attitude, if you can have good conversations with them, etc. If anything, your idea of "true feelings" coming from looks actually sounds like superficial attraction. If anything, relationships built on superficial attraction are the ones that fail. Relationships built on common interests and good conversations are much more solid and much less likely to fail, because you become attached to the person's personality. Looks don't give you much to go on.
I don't think your facts are straight about "sub 8" men not eliciting the same passion from a woman, either. I doubt I've ever been with a "Chad" (not would I ever want to be, a pretty boy is not someone I'd ever be interested in), and have never had trouble finding passion in my relationships. I also don't think it's realistic that most women would leave their legitimate relationship to chase someone who is physically attractive. Yes, of course some women do, but those aren't the kind of women you would want to be with anyways.
Woman absolutely have the ability to care for men even if they are below average. Again, looks are pretty low on the importance scale. You aren't correct at all that "love hinges on the vaginal tingles and material resources a man provides". I hope for your own sake that you look back on comments like this in 5 or 10 years and realize how ridiculous they are. Sure, some women are golddiggers who want a man for his money or his looks, but it doesn't mean the majority of us are. Some men are the same way, only wanting to date incredibly "hot" women, but I'm not over here putting the blanket statement that because some men are like that, all men must be. Humans are more complex than that, and you can't just group an entire sex together because of what some people do.
1 WhyNotLayDownAndRot 2018-03-08
i don’t know why ugly men even waste their time doing shit like PMing/discord with “””fa””” women. best case scenario is you become one of a few dozen orbiters. they all have unlimited attractive fakecels like iamhopeless or gambler to choose from. it’s just pathetic.
1 Carkudo 2018-03-08
There was this one time when a long-time r/FA poster got together with some fat chick from there, so that inspires hope.
1 r4risbullshit 2018-03-08
Oh my god. So THIS is what a quick kill looks like.
1 CptErection23 2018-03-08
1 r4risbullshit 2018-03-08
Inspired me to change my flair.
1 Claymore-2000 2018-03-08
GOLDEN
1 Greek_Talent 2018-03-08
BRUTAL BLACKPILL. CUCKTEARS WHAT DO U SAY?
1 fuckin_kiddin_me_rn 2018-03-08
Not really. If the guy was like a 2 and the girl was a 5 then it's reasonable for her to reject him.
1 Greek_Talent 2018-03-08
The whore could have ssid at least something nice you cuxk
1 fuckin_kiddin_me_rn 2018-03-08
"Oh I'm sorry" is rude now?
1 Favourabill 2018-03-08
Yeah, it is rude when its put in such a blunt way.
1 iQ9k 2018-03-08
Oh man this one is a classic
1 kristallnachte 2018-03-08
The second part of your title isn't in this post. Or even related.
1 jaghatarhonor 2018-03-08
1 trevmon 2018-03-08
it's rough out their boyos
1 just_for_the_record 2018-03-08
Oh, I'm sorry.
1 birtopia 2018-03-08
Females can’t be lonely because incels exist.
1 dj10show 2018-03-08
Yes, but even I have been ghosted after being with a girl when they've found someone better. And I'm average, so just think about what happens to those who are under that threshold.
1 Hopecel 2018-03-08
I have my opinions, you have yours. I never said I have inside knowledge or anything like that. The appeal to (non)-authority is a logical fallacy. You should try to avoid using logical fallacies to prove your point, add credibility or discredit my arguments.
God, why do you have to be so fucking autistic? The general rule is that men ask out women in the vast majority of cases. It’s nice that it was 50/50 for you but an exception doesn’t disprove the rule.
I can read what other people say on the internet? Like are you dumb? Do you think I never talk to people in real life?
It’s not an unnecessary or rude question. It’s very important to me. If you are or someone else is insecure about being a slut, then rightfully so. The past shapes you to the person who you are today. If i was in jail for 10 years for a crime should I keep it a secret and never talk about my past? “None of your business”? I want to know if this person is worth my time or not. Like wtf.
You are degenerates and your relationship is likely to fail.
Why else would someone be offended if I ask how many people they had sex with if she doesn’t fear slut shaming? Why are you insecure about your past? As I said before the past makes you the person who you are today. If you have sex outside of a LTR you are a slut and have no self respect whatsoever. At least professional sluts are smart enough charge money for their services.
There is absolutely no point in arguing with you. I’m sure you feel the same. Have a nice day.
1 misanthropycel 2018-03-08
I have tried therapy and it does not seem to work for me. I have had quite a few therapy sessions where I end up feeling worse afterward. Posting on incels/4chan has helped me much more than therapy ever has.
I appreciate your comments nevertheless.